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JakaB

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2005, 07:48:38 PM »
Ed,

Next time you care for a baby with a birth defect tell the parents it was natural selection in action....Engineers give building and occupancy permits and should no more give them at the bottom of unstable slopes than in the bowels of a chemical plant...In Missiouri after the most recent killer flood the engineers in charge had the good sense to refuse people in grave danger from moving back...the government bought the houses at less cost than building a monsterous levy..
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 07:49:42 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2005, 08:09:27 PM »
Who if anyone is hurt by the problems at Rustic besides the owners.....

... It seems that using Rustic as both a fire wall and detention basin is really a win win except for the investors...so really...can anyone make a case for the course never being built.


John -

Are these questions or statements?

However, according to Pat Mucci, your first question/statement must have an answer because he defined it as a "disaster", perhaps he can answer it for you.

For the second question, I suggest that you read Pat's replies on this topic ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

pdrake

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2005, 08:13:43 PM »
I agree with John here.........it is all about greed.....property tax $$$, building $$$, etc.  And if one govt $$ is spent to fix these houses, it is a travesty.  

JakaB

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2005, 08:14:29 PM »
Mike,

Questions....from what I can tell if Rustic was private it would be a more tragic event...being public...no harm no foul....as long as the employees continue to be paid that is..

As it is the working man may come out of this with increased employment....it happens every winter to our good roads in Illinois..

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2005, 08:49:41 PM »
Lynn S,

The clubhouse at Riverside has not been built, and I am doubtful that it will be under the present positioning of the course.  With 20+ acres of undeveloped land well above the flloodplain and its own exit off the free way going north and south, I thought that it was a very strategic investment in the early 1990s.  It would make a great hotel/resort property, or even a very nice office site.

Riverside, along with Woodhaven and Diamond Oaks CC were sold off over a year ago by Goldman Sachs/Starwood (?) to a Canadian group (might be Western Golf).  I understand that the three properties are underperforming, as many second and third tier clubs are in this area.

The Williams deal to buy the 20+ properties Texas portfolio from GS/Starwood (the old AGC portfolio) has fallen through.  At around $6 Million per property, I never thought that it would close.  A past president of Club Corp whose name presently escapes me is supposed to have this portfolio under contract for about 80% of what Mr. Williams had it before.  I still think that the price is way too rich, though one never knows.

Recently, The Tour 18 facility in Flower Mound sold to a Japanese investor for 12.4 Million, a price so far out of line that it is impossible to comprehend.  Supposedly, this man has two young sons and he bought it for them to operate (and I wanted Jeff Goldman to adopt me so he would take me on his Monterey Penninsula golf trips!).  Tour 18 was running specials during the summer for $49 including carts on weekdays.

The same guy is in the process of purchasing Southern Oaks (just south of Ft. Worth), a very good Mark Brooks designed course with a Scottish flavor.  I understand that the price is in the $4 Million range, which is less than half of what it cost to build just a few years ago.

BTW, none of these courses hold a candle to Rustic Canyon.    
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 08:51:24 PM by Lou_Duran »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2005, 10:44:56 PM »
John,
   Give me a break, that is a silly analogy. A baby born with a birth defect is a chance event, a house at the bottom of a hill in SoCal is a guaranteed recipe for disaster, its not a matter of if, only when. Granted some birth defects are preventable, but it is still a chance event.
    Happy New Year, I hope we get a chance to play a round together.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2005, 02:30:45 AM »
Who if anyone is hurt by the problems at Rustic besides the owners.....It seems that using Rustic as both a fire wall and detention basin is really a win win except for the investors...so really...can anyone make a case for the course never being built.

The county will experience some financial loss, as they get part of the take.  

The course doesnt work well as a detention basin.  It is pretty steep (about 125 ft. drop per mile) and the water generally runs right through it.   It backed up this time because waterways further down were plugged with trees and debris.  

But it was a very good fire break, as it kept the fire from storming down the canyon into town.   Also, three firefighting helicopters used the course as their base, two off of heli-pads between 18 and 12, and one off the 18th tee.  

The investors take the brunt of it.   But even with the problems of the last 15 months, I'd be willing to bet that the investors come out of this in the black, or very close to it.   I can think of no reasonable argument for not having built the course, unless one had general environmental or land use concerns.

Quote
On another note....I felt that the deaths of many illegal aliens that are forced to live in the most destitute places was covered up in the last natural disaster....do you think there are any unreportable deaths in this rain event and following mud slides....

  The first death I heard about with this storm was an unidentified transient who drown in the concrete LA river.  The only way I can imagine that deaths would be underreported would be if illegal aliens or transients were not reported missing and then if their bodies were never found.

To which last natural disaster do you refer?  

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2005, 10:59:57 AM »
Jeff,
If a meteor hit NGLA would that make CB MacDonald an idiot for choosing that location for the club?

No, only you for drawing such an absurd analogy.
[/color]


Priceless.

I make a joke and get slammed for it.  I swear, anytime I say anything on here, someone has to get in their daily name-calling out on me.  So, now I'm an idiot, Patrick?  What other names can you call me this year?

Patrick.....

IT WAS A JOKE!  :D ;D :)


Jeff F.

#nowhitebelt

jpj

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2005, 07:11:56 PM »
I am curious if the local jurisdiction that pemitted Rustic Canyon required a hydrology study before issuing a grading permit, and if so, were the recmendations of the study followed. Pete Dye's Dunes Course in In La Quinta has several holes designed in a flood channel. All greens and tees are above flood levels, and even some fairways. Sophisticated developers pay attention to such details.

But even with all the $$$$ in the world, stuff happens. The venerable Reserve here in the Desert had a $$$$$ concrete lined channel fail.

In other desert news, Cimmaron G.C. got thrashed, and the opening of the new Silverrock was delayed at least a month. month.

DMoriarty

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2005, 08:09:44 PM »
I spoke with Jeff Hicks (super who was there during construction and grow-in) this morning about some of these issues . . . .

Prior to the course being built, the Army Corp of Engineers mapped out the areas above the 100 year flood plane and the course was built on those areas, above the 100 year flood plane.  

County officials recently informed Jeff that the recent flood will be designated as a 200 year flood in the county records.

Jeff also noted that, while digging for one of his main lines, he found the bridge to No. 5 intact and in place, under five feet of sand and silt.  His irrigation main lines are still in place, which hopefully will make the repairs cheaper and easier.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2005, 08:43:45 PM »
John,
   Regarding the photo of La Conchita that you posted and stated the engineer should be held responsible, I disagree. I have lived in Calif. for over 20 years and if you live at the bottom of a slope like that and you are killed that is natural selection in action. Only an IDIOT lives below a hillside like that in Calif. If anybody is responsible for the deaths at La Conchita it is the money grubbing developer who built those houses right in the path of a disaster waiting to happen. As the saying goes, buyer beware.

Ed,
How far is your house in the Bay Area located away from the San Andreas Fault?






Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2005, 11:01:37 PM »
Jeff Fortson,

How would I know that ?

I can't read your mind, nor determine the inflection in your voice.

I merely responded to what you typed, not what you might have meant.

Perhaps a smiley face would have conveyed a different message  ;D

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2005, 11:38:04 PM »
My guess is the routing will be 1, 2, 5 (playing as a medium-long par 3), then 8-18.  No. 2 shares part of its fairway with No. 5 and the walk from the 5th green to the 8th tee is very short.  I think that the group of us that went out late in the day at the King's Putter may have played exactly that routing.  

I think we played 1,2, #5 as a short par 3 of about 120, #7 green from #6 blue tees of about 160, then 8 and 9.

That might also be a reasonable routing for the short term.

A_Clay_Man

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2005, 11:40:25 PM »
What is the pricing?

I'd guess a reduced rate will fill the sheets, and weather the flow. Cash that is.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 11:40:49 PM by Adam Clayman »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2005, 12:02:02 AM »
John,
   Regarding the photo of La Conchita that you posted and stated the engineer should be held responsible, I disagree. I have lived in Calif. for over 20 years and if you live at the bottom of a slope like that and you are killed that is natural selection in action. Only an IDIOT lives below a hillside like that in Calif. If anybody is responsible for the deaths at La Conchita it is the money grubbing developer who built those houses right in the path of a disaster waiting to happen. As the saying goes, buyer beware.

Ed,
How far is your house in the Bay Area located away from the San Andreas Fault?



Tommy -

The San Andreas Fault is relatively inactive in the Bay Area and runs up through Salinas, San Jose and the Peninsula, ask him about the Hayward Fault ...

Mike

Ps:  I live within a few miles of the San Andreas Fault (the resevoirs on the west of I280 are directly above the fault) and I think we can declare the San Andreas Fault as the Fault with the greatest golf courses (or the Fault that could destroy the greatest golf courses) ... Pasatiempo, Stanford, Donald Ross' Peninsula G&CC, Mac's Green Hills, Cal Club, Lake Merced CC, Olympic, SFGC and Harding Park are all in the shake zone ... and no, I don't have earthquake insurance ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2005, 12:48:53 AM »
Thanks Mike,
O.K. Ed, How far is your house away from the Hayward fault?

DMoriarty

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2005, 02:08:10 AM »
A few more pictures.

Something else to think about on No. 10 . . .





No. 14 fairway from accross the wash (bridge from upstream in middle of the photo) . . .


Bridge behind the 11th tee . . .



« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 02:44:04 AM by DMoriarty »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2005, 02:18:11 AM »
David, here is your last pic.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

A_Clay_Man

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2005, 09:29:52 AM »
What are the procedures to follow?
Does one take samples of the sandy silt
to see if it is a good medium?

It's seems a shame to alter too much of the
 perfectly natural.

DMoriarty

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2005, 01:05:09 PM »
What are the procedures to follow?
Does one take samples of the sandy silt
to see if it is a good medium?

It's seems a shame to alter too much of the
 perfectly natural.


Adam,   I am not sure what the procedures are, but I suppose they will try to unbury the damage on the lower part of the course (mainly the 4th green).  This damage was at least in part due to the backup of the municipality system down stream.  

The only hole that is really gone is No. 7, with that they will have to reassess the channels and build around/above them.  

The silty sand on the canyon floor has proven to be a very good medium for growing in the past.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2005, 08:00:49 PM »
Dave Moriarty,

When something like this happens, does it alter the permiting process on the disturbed or newly formed land, or is the evolved land treated as an environmental area not meant to be disturbed or remediated ?

Another way of phrasing this is, is there a grandfathering with respect to permits, or does the entire process start all over again ?

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2005, 08:07:01 PM »
A few more pictures.

Are the trees that served as the aiming point from the back tees on 14 entirely gone?  Those were pretty big.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2005, 10:31:22 AM »
 ...... so it looks as though we have added  to the "new trend" in left coast golf - now Rustic has been added to Sheep Ranch in the "less-than-18" mania.

Seriously, it is hard to imagine that this devastation could take place.

Let's hope the heavy rains abate and Gil can get this masterpiece back to where it should be.

He's there now.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Don_Mahaffey

Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2005, 10:53:22 AM »
Adam,
A few years ago we had serious flood damage at my course in AZ. My course was bordered on the east by the Santa Cruz river, a normally dry wash or very small creek that turned into a 100yd wide monster when a tropical storm decided to come up the Gulf of California and dump 12 inches of rain in the Santa Cruz's watershed. We lost half of our 18th hole, a few sections of mainline in wash crossings and had some serious silt deposited on some of the lower holes. For the silt we used a box blade on a tractor and just piled it up being careful not to rip up the turf. Once we got all we could with the tractor we removed the rest by hand with the final step being hosing off the turf. It was a method I learned from a area supt who had been through a few floods. To repair the damaged 18th we got a permit from the county and the corp of engineers to work in the 100 year flood plane. That allowed up to use material from the flood plain to repair the hole. About 5 days on a dozer and a couple of days repairing the irrigation system and we were ready to plant. When ever you need to move dirt in FEMA's 100 year flood plain you will need some permits. Basically, if you alter the 100 year flood plain in any way your supposed to do some sort of mitigation to assure that it doesn't change anything. The quantities of earth within the flood plain are supposed to remain the same. In our case we had aerial and ground level photos that showed what we had before the flood and the authorities allow us to replace what we once had. Hopefully, they'll do the same for RC.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's Up with Rustic Canyon ?
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2005, 09:40:18 AM »
Anyone who made naive and simplistic assumptions about the quality of design and engineering of railroad beds, highways and Rustic Canyon based on one small photo posted here should read this:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/22/TRAINS.TMP

This looks like another broken link. Can anyone help me?