White Manor CC

[Donnie Beck]

White Manor CC in Malvern, PA won GOLF INC. magazine's inaugural Renovation of the year award. Is anyone familar with this project? I am wondering why White Manor would hire Florida based Booby Weed to do the work when they have Gil Hanse in their back yard?

[Mike_Sweeney]

D,

My guess is that they had a reference point from Weed's locally done Glen Mills Golf Course that was very well received.
http://www.glenmillsgolf.com/ Glen Mills is public so they did not have to compete in selling memberships against another local Weed club.

Gil Hanse has alot of stuff in that area (French Creek, Applebrook) that are private clubs selling memberships, so White Manor may not have wanted to get into that position. I don't know their rates, but pricing is probably part of it.

Jason Mandel is a member and post here and he had some people there before or after the French Creek outing, so it would be interesting to hear a comparison between the two.

[DTaylor18]

It will also be discussed in depth during one of the panel discussions at the Winter Meeting.

[Mike_Sweeney]

It will also be discussed in depth during one of the panel discussions at the Winter Meeting.

Matt Ward is just so far ahead of all of us, isn't he Dan !!!

[DTaylor18]

Never question Uncle Matt, he plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays all the courses.  

[Rob_Waldron]

I had the opportunity to discuss the renovation with the Club President during my visit to White Manor this Summer. He indicated that Weed was not the original first choice. Apparently the club was discussing renovations with another architect. Several WM members including the current President attended the "Renovations 101" seminar held by the ASGCA held at Aronimink.  After hearing Bobby Weed speak the group invited him to tour their course. They were so impressed by his energy and design concepts they retained him to do their renovation.

BTW Bobby did a wonderful job at White Manor!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Scot Sherman, a great guy who works with Weed, spent the majority of the firm's time on-site at White Manor, I believe.

[Jason Mandel]

Thanks for the interest guys. Yes, I will be giving a short presentation at the Winter Conferenence where I will go more in-depth into the whole project, and if you do a search I have posted a good deal of information on here before.

As for why we didn't choose Gil, I was not part of the search committee so can't say exactly why he wasn't considered.  

Gil is a wonderful architect, and yes at the time he was working on French Creek, Appleebrook, and even involved with Gulph Mills.  The only fully completed work by Gil in the Philadelphia area at the time was Inniscrone, and even know a lot of us at GCA love the place, their are a lot of people in the area that had/have concerns about the place.  I know a lot of people at the club were favorably impressed with Glen Mills, although Bobby asked the membership to please not consider Glen Mills because it was an very  difficult piece of property to work with.  Around the time we started looking into things Bobby also had been doing his "This Old Course" feature for the University of Florida course that ran in Sports Illustrated.  

As far as cost is concerned, I can say fairly certainly that Bobby's costs were not any cheaper than Gil's, it was most likely the other way around.  

Yes, Scot Sherman was the on-site guy and I believe during construction Bobby was there about everyother week for a day and a half or so, as he would fly in on Thursday then go down to Virginia where they were working on the Deane Beaman project.  Scot is a young guy in the industry that really "gets it" and we were lucky to have him on sight as much as he was.  

Our situation was a very delicate one.  We had a good golf course already, so that amount of work that needed to be done was negotiable.  The major factors that needed to be dealt with were the trees, which we were overgrown with and causing the turf to be very unhealthy and the greens which were built incorrectly 50 years ago.  

I have not spoken or heard from one person that has played the course before and played it now that were not favorably impressed by the work Bobby and Scot have done, the compliments  have been overwhelming.  One thing that I thought was really interesting and proof how much Bobby and Scot "get it" is how two of the holes were actually dramatically shortened to add strategy in an age where everyone is looking to ADD length.  

I will be happy to anser anyone elses questions and will be at the conference in February but if anyone is in Philadelphia and would like to see/or play the place please let me know, I'd be happy to show anyone around. I've had some GCA'ers out and they have all really enjoyed it.


Jason Mandel

[Donnie Beck]

Thank you for the information. I recently saw a presentation by Bobby and was impressed with the work.

[Jason Mandel]

Thanks Bill,

One comment though, you thought the greens were on the MILD side? The one comment we get from everyone is how WILD some of the greens are, and some people think are overdone.

When the girls played the AJGA championship this summer they were freaking out because they couldn't handle some of the greens.  The AJGA referred to the greens as "radical"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie Beck,

Bobby Weed will be doing work at Pine Tree this summer or next.

[Adam_Messix]

Jason--

Several individuals in the Philadelphia area whose opinions I respect have spoken highly of the improvements at White Manor.  Bobby Weed did a really nice job with Glen Mills and in my opinion reflects very well upon him.  There a couple of downers about the site, the severity of the 11th hole and the 18th finishing well away from the clubhouse.  However, I thought the rest of the course is excellence and John Vogts keeps the place in excellent condition.

Pat--

They are working on Pine Tree again?  I thought they did renovation about 6 years ago.  I don't remember the architect involved.  I know that they really struggled the first year getting the greens to come in, but are they still struggling?  I would be interested to hear what Bobby Weed might do to the golf course.  

[Jeff Shelman]

As someone who played with Jason over the summer, I thought White Manor was great. The holes were interesting and challenging without being overdone.

It's the kind of course that I like: Interesting to play over and over and one where you are required to hit good shots in order to score.

I never saw the place previously, but I enjoyed White Manor very much.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As I said before in a previous thread about White Manor, I enjoyed my day there with Jason and thoroughly enjoyed the new WM. If this club were geographically more convenient, I would join in minute.

Steve

[Jason Mandel]

Adam,

I did not mean for it to sound like Glen Mills was not a very good course.  It is, and is indeed highly respected both for what Bobby produced and for what the course stands for.  I just know that Bobby did ask the membership, when his bid was up for member wide approval, to really not take Glen Mills into consideration because it was a unique situation with alot of constrictions.  Nonetheless, he did a great job.

Jason Mandel

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Messix,

MY opinion on the problem with the greens several years ago is as follows.

Members complained about their difficult play.
That they were hard and repelled shots. (typical of new greens)
Unfortunately, they were overwatered to compensate for the firm conditions, and therein lies the reason for their failure and their ongoing problems.

Ron Forse redid the golf course the last time.

A proposal has been made to clear Banyon or Fica trees along the left of # 12.  Non-indigenous trees took a beating during this last hurricane season, and I believe that Florida in general and golf courses specifically, have learned their lesson.  Plant what's indigenous to the area, to the exclusion of decorative, unstable plantings that can't withstand hurricanes that occur with regularity.

The other proposal is to move the right side fairway bunkers further down the fairway on the 9th hole to compensate for Hi-tech and distance.  Very few members can carry these bunkers and many oppose touching Wilson's design.  Some feel that the course shouldn't be altered for a minute percentage of golfers.  I do't favor that change, but, the vote of the members will determine the scope of the changes.

In addition, the golf course will be regrassed, bunkers redone, etc., etc..

[mike_malone]

 I wonder whether the membership will weary of the "wildness" of the greens. I need to get there again, but my first impression was that on some of the uphill holes, particularly #9, that there may be too much "plateauing".