Brothers

[T_MacWood]

A long time ago Ran speculated (or heard a rumor) that Donald Ross's brother Aeneas was the genius behind DJR, if I recall Brad K posted that Aeneas was more idiot than genius. There have been a number of brothers who have delved into design...Charles MacKenzie for one. Mungo Park (I believe he was Willie's brother) and Nicol Thompson are a couple more. How good were the lesser known MacKenzie, Park and Thompson? Was their work stylistically similar to their brothers?

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

What was Thompson's brothers name?  I was just talking to a super from the Catskills whose front nine was designed by, I think it was James Thompson?

Steve

[TEPaul]

This is a bit off the subject of talented architectural brothers of well known architects but we were slightly surprised to hear about Dick Wilson's brother. The only information we have on him came from William Flynn's daughter, Connie Lagerman who's alive and very well in Bryn Mawr, Pa. She'd mentioned to our questions on Dick Wilson's part with the company of Toomey and Flynn that even early on Dick Wilson posed somewhat of a problem for the company as he apparently took design and construction matters into his own hands in various departures from the drawn plans at various courses, particularly at Shinnecock. This apparently was not acceptable to the company or its most usual foreman, William Gordon, and the crew had to go back and fix those things. I suppose she was also implying that Dick Wilson, although obviously a talented employee of Toomey and Flynn, could be maddeningly unreliable sometimes. But this seemed to be put into persepective in an interesting way when Connie mentioned that the company always felt that Wilson's brother who also worked for Toomey and Flynn couldn't have been more reliable.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Nicol Thompson was designing golf courses before his younger brother, Stanley.

The elder Thompson was the head pro at Hamilton G&CC, and created a design partnership with Toronto Golf Club head pro, George Cumming. Following Harry Colt's work at both clubs, during the 1910s, Toronto and Hamilton possessed the two best golf courses in Canada. I think golfers throughout Ontario figured if they couldn't get Colt, Cumming and Nicol Thompson would suffice!

They brought Stanley into the mix around 1920. When the two pros got too busy, they elected to commit to their respective clubs, essentially leaving the golf architecture business to Stanley.

Nicol laid-out some very good courses, including Brantford G&CC.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Even back in those days, with limited media, I doubt that they could or would carry off such an elaborate ruse.  Based on todays brother combos in GCA, I suspect the brothers might be out there trying to prove they were equals, not support the other.  For that matter, look at any prodigy, such as our Presidents, and name one whos brother sat on the sidelines (without good reason.)  Think Billy Carter and Roger Clinton. The Bushes seem to be a little more consistent in their abilities, (whatever those may be!)

Secondly, Brad has documented that DR made the train trips, etc.  Had he known absolutely nothing about design, I am sure some sharp client would have noticed somewhere along the line.

I suspect DR helped his brother greatly, but could be wrong.  It would be interesting to know.

[T_MacWood]

Stephen
I don't believe Stanley Thompson had a brother named James.

Anyone familar with Charles MacKenzie's Rungsted? Pannal?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Yes, I've played both.  CA also did Fulford.  

Rungsted was altered slightly by O. Bojensen in 1959.  I liked a lot of it - some excellent longer par 4s but you cross under the railway for 13-17 and they are rather disappointing holes.  The better holes make good use of rolling topography and there are several dog-legs around copses and marshes.  I don't remember the greens being complex.  I have a feeling the sequence 13-17 may have been rebuilt in some way since I played there.  

I posted some pictures of Pannal a while ago in the British Courses series (to which I will return later in the year).  It's spacious with a good collection of upland holes.  I've not been there for a while, so my memory may be suspect, but again it was the quality of the longer par 4s which impressed - nothing ostentatious, just good, honest holes.  

I also posted some Fulford pictures in that series.  There were big changes when the A64 was routed through the course.  I like the holes beyond it, which are heathland in nature, but the early and late holes which are near the clubhouse are pretty ordinary.  Condition of the course is usually very good.

[T_MacWood]

Mark
Can you detect any stylistic similarities between C.A. and Alister?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

No, but I think Mack's style took a while to develop.  Look at Alwoodley and what survives from his other Leeds courses.  There's a lot of development between those and Cypress (which I haven't seen), Pasatiempo (which I have played) or Augusta (of course not!), though I shall be interested to see what Ran has to say about Mack's earliest essay when he posts his review of Alwoodley.  I think we might hear from Nick Leefe one of these days, too, someone with an extensive knowledge of Mack courses worldwide.  

I don't know enough about CA and how he worked, how much he was involved in construction or how detailed his plans may have been.  I don't know how much input CA had at Pannal - it was a Sandy Herd course originally.  There the land has plenty of movement (but not extreme, apart from the first few and last two holes) and the essence of the course is its routing using the topography to make interesting fairways and good, natural green sites.  That is why, I suspect, I remember the layout and essence of many of the holes well, but don't really recall individual green complexes.  If I can find them I might e-mail you photos of Rungsted - I haven't easy access to posting them on GCA at the moment.

[ian]

William (Bill) Thompson was Stanley's partner longer than Nicol. Thompon Jones and Thompson was Bill. Bill's strength was building courses as opposed to designing them.

His cousin Nicol (not the same one-his brother Frank's son) was also a key construction member too. Young Nicol had lots of talent, but a serious drinking problem, bad enough to bother Stanley to leave him behind as a super. Imagine that.

[Jeff_Mingay]

That is amazing, Ian. Considering Stanley's reported affection for the drink. Young Nicol must have had a serious problem!

[T_MacWood]

I believe Charles MacKenzie worked with Guy Campbell as some point.

I've heard Nicol Thompson's Midland is good...he designed some courses in the Deep South (US) as well. Was he involved at St. Thomas?

Mungo Park assisted at Maidstone, he also designed a number of famous golf courses in South America.

Jeff
Maybe young Nicol was dipping into Stanley's personal stash.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I always wanted to go up to see Midland, but haven't yet. John Gordon, a golf writer and TV personality here in Canada, is a member there. I've heard neat things about it.

And, I believe Ian A. and Doug Carrick did some work up there in recent years. Ian?

[Rick Shefchik]

A side note on this discussion:

I'm reading Charles Price's "A Golf Story" about Bobby Jones and Augusta National, in which he insists that Alister spelled his own last name Mackenzie, as it was printed throughout a book he published in 1920 (Price doesn't say which book, but it apparently wasn't "The Spirit of St. Andrews," which as far I can determine was published in 1933.)

Price says Mackenzie's name has been incorrectly spelled "MacKenzie" because of the heightened, stylized way he wrote the letter "K" in his signature.

It's obvious that the world has agreed to spell the name MacKenzie, but Price seemed pretty sure of himself, and spelled the name "Mackenzie" throughout his book.

Is Price full of it?

[ian]

Tom,

The Nicol I refered to was the nephew. His brother Nicol maintained a golf design business well after Stanly went on his own. Cumming and both Thompsosns all went their seperate ways in 22'

Nichol designed Brantford with Cumming. Midland's nine by Nicol is very good and similar to his brothers work.

[ian]

Tom,

Anything before 1922 has to be in question. From 1920-1922, the work could have been any of the three.

George Cumming

definately routed Brantford, Summit and Mississaugua, and likely much more that we don't know about. He was a very capable architect with almost no records.

Nichol Thompson

appears to have supervised constrauction at Brantford
routed and designed front nine at Midland - great fun.

most likely did Chedoke since he participated in the opening ceremonies and Stanley Thompson didn't (referenced in Canadian Golfer)

Some questions about:

Highlands in London
Brockville
Glendale in Hamilton
Sarnia
Norway Point
and others I can't think of off the top of my head

Thompson is a major name here, so anything in doubt is labelled Thompson, unfortunately this will leave Cumming and Nichol's legacy lost by the huge shadow of Stanley.

It's like the old York Downs by CH. Alison being credited to Thompson for years.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

It makes complete sense that Nicol laid out Chedoke - the municipal course in Hamilton.

And, I recall being pretty clear on the fact that Sarnia was originally designed by Geo. Cumming, after reading it somewhere... perhaps Jim Barclay's book?

[Yancey_Beamer]

Rick,
The name was spelled both ways during his career,both Mackenzie and MacKenzie.I have copies of a number of the papers discovered at the time the "Spirit of St. Andrews" papers were discovered.The death certificate lists the name spelled both ways.

[tlavin]

I recall reading that Mungo was actually Willie Park, Jr.'s uncle, but I may be mistaken...

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