Is Cuscowilla just a modern-day Raynor?

[SPDB]

Brian -

Brian look at any aerial of NGLA 8 or Sunningdale 12 (the orig. bottle), and you will see that there is a distinct  echelon patterns to the cross bunkers. Cusco #5 however, is a large maw of a bunker, there is nothing diagonal to it.

All I'm saying is that you are making it sound as if the Raynor/MacD influences at Cusco are a given and you are alreadhy searching for other courses where there are also "a lot" of Raynor/MacD influences.

But when you say things like:

• #3 is a redan without the kickplate. What is it, then, other than a par 3 angled with a green angled toward the tee and a bunker short right? More importantly, couldn't the same be said for a good number of par 3s everywhere.
• #1 is like #1 at NGLA (except it does not play through a valley). First of all, the 1st at NGLA is called "Valley" so right away something is amiss.

you lose me.

I fail to see what similarities apart from general angles and bunker placement that would give anybody the indication that Coore and Crenshaw were influenced by Raynor. Its just a huge stretch.

[Brian_Gracely]

George,

I just checked Geoff's book and you are correct that there is not a Raynor routing.  Apparently I lost my mind and all of my previously babbling is nothing but utter nonsense.

I must admit my wrongness.  I shall now put on my hair coat and banish myself from GCA for a period worthy of making such foolish statements and false accusations.

[George Pazin]

There is nothing wrong with making a bold assertion about the similarities in principles, I just wanted to find out if you had information that previously hadn't been shared on here.

You're not the only one who believes CP was routed by Raynor - other participants of GCA have voiced similar opinions, but, like I said, it was mostly conjecture.

I'm going to go home and look at Geoff's book on CP anyway - that always makes me feel better.

 

[SPDB]

Brian:

Here is the view from the tee at Cusco #5



there is nothing diagonal about it, in fact it is triangular with the narrowest part of the bunker the furthest point away from the golfer.

The whole concept of the the Bottle Hole is that it creates a Bottle Neck (CBM may have even referred to it as such, if I remember correctly), that why the diagonal nature is important. Does #5 create a bottle neck in your estimation?

[George_Bahto]

Geoff and I have scoured every nook and cranny, explored every possible lead .... for years, and have not come up with the Seth Raynor routing of CP. I'm convinced it was :buried" someplace   .....   and it really doesn't matter - we have the great Cypress Point!!

The best info that has come out over the years is the page in Mackenzie's "lost manuscript"  - The Spirit of St. Andrews - where he gave crdit to SR and Marion Hollins for the placement of the great 16th hole.

Ben and Bill (B & B rather than C & C) built a Biarritz at their new course at Bandon (Trails).

[Bill_McBride]

I have to agree that there is very little about #3 Cuscowilla that is "Redan-ish."  The right side actually directs the tee shot hit over there away from the green rather than toward the green.  From what I saw of the Redan at North Berwick, it's not necessary to hit a draw to get the right to left kick, just to hit the ball over there.  On #3 at Cuscowilla, you'd have to hit a smart draw to get the right kick.

The green certainly angles in the right direction, and the lake certainly takes the place of the bunker effectively, but without the right to left kick, I don't think it is particularly Redanish, just a good par 3 hole.