Is Cuscowilla just a modern-day Raynor?

[Brian_Gracely]

I've been reading George Bahto's "Golf Evangelist" book recently, which I must say is excellent.  I skipped alot of the stuff about CBM's ego (maybe later), but have been enjoying the section on "types of holes".  Some I had seen previously on GCA, but others I had never really thought about too much.  It got me to thinking about holes I've played recently that used similar concepts.

Then I got to thinking about Cuscowilla.  

#1 is similar to #1 at NGLA (although not down into a valley)
#3 is a Redan (without kickplate)
#4 and #10 are Cape holes
#5 is a Bottle
#14 could be considered a Long
#11 could be considered a Short

Have C&C exhibited alot of Raynor/CBM influences at other courses?

[RE Blanks]

If you want a modern day Raynor see Black Creek.  I agree that the holes listed are somewhat based on CBM, Raynor, however I would not call #3 a true Redan.  Shaped like a a redan but the green falls in the wrong direction.  I think the best examples would be the two Cape Holes.  The real similarites with the holes at Cusco and the Raynor standards is they provide stratigic options.

[JakaB]

Grace,

Have you ever played a Raynor....Cuscowilla doesn't even have a sniff..

[Brian_Gracely]

JK,

I don't mean "a Raynor" in the sense of asthetics, I mean more in the sense of copying well-known holes.  Of course it's not Raynor-esque, it has hairy bunkers and engineers don't like anything but straight lines  

btw - only Raynor I've played is MPCC Dunes and Cypress Point.

[Pete Lavallee]

I thought  #8 plays like a reverse Redan.

[TEPaul]

"btw - only Raynor I've played is MPCC Dunes and Cypress Point."

Brian:

Huh? Cypress Point? Why don't you try telling that to Alister Mackenzie? Maybe Raynor was going to build Cypress Point but at the last minute Alister killed him and did the course himself. I think it's a damn shame too considering the mess Alister ended up making out there. That's a natural site that called for highly engineered, straight line architecture if I ever saw one!

[JakaB]

I really see Cuscowilla closer to being a Stiles design...a bunch of Ross with some "County Club" Raynor around the edges...

[Mike_Sweeney]

You want modern day Raynor, done right?

Rman,

More Hugh Wilson than Raynor, IMHO.

[Bob_Huntley]

Brian,

You wrote:

"btw - only Raynor I've played is xxxx and Cypress Point."

Brian

Prepare to be pillioried by the MacKenzie acolytes for that statement. Delete it immediately and save youself some grief.

Bob

[SPDB]

Have C&C exhibited alot of Raynor/CBM influences at other courses?

Brian,
Come on! In that sentence you assume that Cusco has Raynor/CBM influences, which is does not (with the exception of your #10 comparison, but the Cape strategy whether off the tee or into the green is a very common technique employed by any architect practicing).

Wouldn't you say that #8 could be considered a biarritz without the dead straight orientation, swale or coffin bunkers?

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian,

You wrote:

"btw - only Raynor I've played is xxxx and Cypress Point."

Brian

Prepare to be pillioried by the MacKenzie acolytes for that statement. Delete it immediately and save youself some grief.

Bob

Am I factually incorrect that Raynor did the original routing plans at CPC?  And other than 6/7 and 13/14, is MacKenzie's routing significantly different?  

I'm not even a Raynor fan, but are we to completely believe that there really was essentially only one routing that was possible at CPC and both Raynor and the Good Dr. both found it?  I mean CPC's routing is very similar to MPCC Dunes!

Shouldn't Raynor be given at least as much credit as Colt at PVGC and Burbeck at Bethpage Black?

[Brian_Gracely]

Sean,

You don't believe that #5 is a Bottle Hole?  And you don't think #4 is also a Cape?  And I don't think it's a huge stretch to compare #14 to a Long.  

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

True experts on CPC do frequent this forum, so hopefully they will chime in.  And perhaps I am wrong, but it is my recollection that Raynor did do A [/b] routing for CPC, but that MacKenzie did is own without consultation of such.  Of course this remains a great debate - as does the differences, if any, between the two - and one of the holy grails of golf is the actual Raynor routing, which apparently some have seen but can only speak about if they kill you or themselves shortly after.

So it remains VERY difficult to call CPC a Raynor, or give him any real credit for it.

But as I say, hopefully the real experts will chime in.

As for MPCC Dunes, well to me it's more Rees than Raynor, but the club lists it as a Raynor and that's good enough for me.  The course description on here says all you need to know.

[Brian_Gracely]

Tom,

I'll go check, but I could have sworn that Geoff's CPC book had a picture of Raynor's proposed routing as I could have sworn that I did some comparisons.  I also find it interesting in the similarities between CPC and MPCC Dunes in basic terms of the routing.  

CPC is obviously the masterpiece that it is because of the way Dr.MacK applied his hands to it (or didn't apply them), I don't argue that one bit.  

[THuckaby2]

Brian:  well, my recollection is not always a good thing, and I have the same CPC book... and perhaps the Raynor routing is in there.  Dammit, you'd think I'd remember.  Oh well.

Still, if that's enough for one to say he's played a Raynor... well... I guess I just look at it differently.  Even if MacKenzie followed the routing 100%, I still wouldn't call it a Raynor.

But this is interesting... turning on how much one thinks a routing in and of itself means.

TH

[Mike_Sweeney]

Hugh Wilson

I didn't get that at all.

I'm comparing strategies, not bunker shapes.  

I really don't care about bunkers looking exactly a certain way, so maybe that's it.

Or maybe there are TWO courses in Ardmore, PA.

[Bob_Huntley]

Brian,

With respect, I see no possible way that you can say that the Dunes and CPC have a similar routing. Frankly, CPC's first three holes are like a delectable canape as you sip on your first gin and tonic. The Dune's first hole is a good test but number's two and three are as dull as ditchwater... and all three holes go out in a straight line. Definitely a warm beer sort of feeling.

Help me here, I am in need of some high-powered instruction.

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

Oh you know my friend, where there is a will, there is a way.  Methinks you will play some Raynor holes at some point... as will I... I'm wracking my brain but I don't think I ever have... does Shinnecock count?

[SPDB]

BRian - The mere existence of a central hazard does not a bottle hole make. It's a split fairway hole, plain and simple. Bottle Holes typically involve a diagonal hazards creating a diminishing fairway, like the 8th at NGLA and its predecessor 12th at Sunningdale.  

Likewise, a diagonal carry exhibits a cape strategy but this is hardly evidence of Raynor influence. If that were the case I would imagine that roughly 15-20% of this country's courses (at the very least) exhibit Raynor influences. As George Bahto has stressed, the Cape strategy Raynor and MacD sought was for the green to be extended out requiring a heroic carry (as NGLA 14 used to).

Lastly what other similarities does 14 have to either MacD's or TOC's Long hole besides its length and its hole number?

[George Pazin]

I'll go check, but I could have sworn that Geoff's CPC book had a picture of Raynor's proposed routing as I could have sworn that I did some comparisons.

Did you go and check, because I am almost equally certain that Geoff's book does not contain a routing by Seth? I'd even go a step further and say that no one has been able to produce the Raynor routing. I asked the question about Raynor on the board some 5 years ago and no one could offer anything other than conjecture.

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian,

With respect, I see no possible way that you can say that the Dunes and CPC have a similar routing. Frankly, CPC's first three holes are like a delectable canape as you sip on your first gin and tonic. The Dune's first hole is a good test but number's two and three are as dull as ditchwater... and all three holes go out in a straight line. Definitely a warm beer sort of feeling.

Bob,

I'm a simple guy who has simple thoughts, so hopefully I can do this moderate justice.  And keeping in mind that I completely agree with you that CPC has a different feel than MPCC Dunes for alot of holes, but here's the sense I get...

Both courses start near the clubhouse and head into the forest.  The challenge of the initial holes on both is reasonable and allow you to stretch you legs into the round.  After a few holes, both courses turn you around in the forest and start getting into some interesting land.  Around the turn on both, you encounter what I think is the most interesting land on both properties and you're offered a glimpse of the ocean.  After this early glimpse of the ocean, your then routed back away from the ocean for a few holes before your final encounter with the ocean and all of its elements.  Finally, you head back to the clubhouse on #18 holes that are marginally interesting but have challenging slope to the green.

Is that a stretch, you bet.  But I actually had those types of thoughts when I played both courses.  Obviously the courses have much different land, so some stretches will be different.  

[Brian_Gracely]

BRian - The mere existence of a central hazard does not a bottle hole make. It's a split fairway hole, plain and simple. Bottle Holes typically involve a diagonal hazards creating a diminishing fairway, like the 8th at NGLA and its predecessor 12th at Sunningdale.  

Take a look at the Bottle hole sketch (hand-drawn) in George's book and tell me that's not what #5 at Cuscowilla looks like?  

It has diminishing fairway to the left, as well as a better angle of approach from the left.    

[JakaB]

So Brian...when is the baby due and how far have your nuts backed up into your brain.   I remember my first pregnancy...tough times my friend.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Me thinks this was a discussion of Cuscowilla gone west. I think Coore and Crenshaw do use many classic concepts. One could argue as Brian has, they take those concepts to a point that might be copies of holes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

How many "Holes" are there anyway ? 100? 500?