RTJ Questions Where'd he come from, and why was he so important?

[Adam_F_Collins]

I've heard that RTJ was the first Landscape Architect/turned Golf Course Architect - or that he was the first to come from that formal education.

First, is that true?

If it is, When did he study? Where did he study? And does anyone know whom he studied under?

Secondly, What was going on in golf course architecture when he came on the scene that made his arrival so important?

[Tony_Chapman]

Adam - Here is a nice little bio on RTJ by Brad Klein. You may have seen it already, but just in case.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/golfonline/travel/architects/rtjones.html

[Tyler Kearns]

Adam,

Robert Trent Jones studied at Cornell University, graduating most likely in the late 1920's. He began his career as a golf course architect apprenticing under Stanley Thompson, where it has been written that he did the priliminary routing for Capilano in West Vancouver. The Thompson-Jones Co. did a lot of work in New York state in the early thirties, and I believe Jones handled most of this work.

By entering golf course architecture in the 1930's, he was a little unfortunate, missing out on the flurry of activity during the golden age (1911-1929). I do not think anybody was anticipating his arrival into the field, therefore, his important mark was left much later in his career. I am not terribly familiar with his work, so please look to others for traits that made him such a notable figure in the history of golf course design. Robert Trent Jones did introduce the runway tee concept and was known for creating large greens. These factors would certainly allow for great flexibility in set-up from a day-to-day perspective.

TK

[BCrosby]

Adam -

While curiosity should always be encouraged, your questions about RTJ are probably too broad to be answered with posts on this forum.

Do some homework. There are lots of books and articles about RTJ out there.

Then come back with more specific questions that your reading has left unanswered.

As they used to say about Chesterfield cigarettes, I think you will find it to be more satisfying.

Bob

[Brad Klein]

Thanks for the heads up, Tony.

Good to know that someone is stocking ten year old stuff, even if I wrote it for another publication and had no idea it appeared on GolfOnLine.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

With all due respect, there's ABSOLUTELY NO WAY Trent Jones did the routing for Capilano. NO WAY. Even if someone showed me strong evidence that suggested otherwise, I wouldn't believe it. Period.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,

I'll look into where I found it written that RTJ did the preliminary routing at Capilano. I was VERY SURPRISED myself when I saw it. I should have looked it up before posting, because I'd hate to be spreading false rumour.

TK

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

I've actually read that "accusation" myself -- that RTJ did the routing. So, I'm not accusing you of making it up.

I don't know who would have started that rumour?!?!

 

[ian]

At different times Trent Jones also claimed to have done the routing at Jasper too. He didn't either, and part of this fact comes from how he operated.

Robbie Robinson used to talk about the suggestions that he and Jeff had made for Highland Golf Links (like placing the 10th green across the river). BUT Robie was very clear, while he took small suggestions on some detail work, he always built the holes where he wanted and how he wanted. I am fairly certain that Robbie was on site with Stanley at Capilano too, by the way.

I'm almost 100% certain that they split the work with Stanley taking all Candaian and Trent taking all the US work. Much of the 30's work was through the government.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

I (Jeff) didn't work at Highlands Links with Thompson... it was GEOFF Cornish  

Cornish was definitely on the Capilano job. He became involved when Thompson ventured to University of British Columbia to find someone knowledgable about soils to assist with the project. That person was a young Geoff Cornish, a student at UBC at the time, without a clue he'd spend the rest of his life working in golf course design. (I heard that story from the "horse's mouth".)

You probably know more about "Robbie" than I do, Ian. But I've always had the impression he worked at the "eastern jobs", ie. Green Gables, Highlands Links, et.al.

Trent Jones at Jasper?! C'mon. Thompson starting working on that design in the early 1920s. I'm 99.9% sure Trent Jones hadn't met Thompson by that time. Although, I can't blame RTJ for this "PR efforts"; a guy's gotta get work!

As for the 10th at Highlands Links, Ian. Would you have placed the green over the Clyburn? It seems to me that would make for a pretty very long carry. Let's find out what the measurement is someday, from the existing 10 tee left of the snack shack, over the river, left or the original 11th tee.

Or do you have an idea (approx.)?

[Brad Klein]

In his design autobiography, "Golf's Magnificent Challenge," a book that he told through the pen of Larry Dennis, RTJ makes an ambiguous claim on pages 77 and 80 about Capilano. He clearly gives Thompson design credit, but then in discussing some work he did for Thompson says that "I routed Capilano for Thompson."

Let's admit it here, RTJ was an egomanical self promoter and capable of making many claims that made himself the hero. My sense is that here, he's either lying (uncharitable interpretation) or exaggerating (charitable account) and that since he's basically talking about office work what he means is he drew in Thompson's routing plan onto a topographic map - just as Walter Irving Johnson used to draw in Ross' prelimnary plans onto full blown topo sheets.

By the way, I still highly recommend this book, excesses and all.

[Jeff_Mingay]

My thoughts echo Brad's. RTJ didn't route Capilano.

I've drawn a few maps of Blackhawk GC in suburban Edmonton, but trust me, Rod Whitman routed that course.

And, if I ever claim to have routed Blackhawk in the future, you can bring up this thread  

[TEPaul]

Jeff Mingay said:

"Tyler,
I've actually read that "accusation" myself -- that RTJ did the routing. So, I'm not accusing you of making it up.
I don't know who would have started that rumour?!?!"

Jeff:

DO NOT put this kind of nefarious rumor generating past those two outrageous "routing rumor-mongerers" MacWood and Turner!! They may have done it to try to take some of the heat off themselves when they set about trying to create the rumor that Harry Colt actually routed AND designed Pine Valley G.C.! But I've completely cut them off at the pass regarding PVGC, although of course they won't admit that, and you should do the same regarding Capilano.  

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Are you drunk?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom P.,

I didn't want to break it to you here, but Stanley Thompson routed Pine Valley  

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Are you drunk?"

Paul:

That's typical! What the hell kind of nonsequitor question is that? That kind of cheap deflection on your part is part and parcel of the fact that you and MacWood must have started that nefarious RTJ Capilano routing rumor!!! The only possible way for you two to redeem and clear yourselves of this  architectural history research crime is for you two to establish incontrovertable proof that YOU DID NOT START THAT RUMOR!

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,

You are right, the quote I was referring to was from Robert Trent Jones himself. Even with the limited number of jobs available in the early 1930's, it's pretty shameful to make such lofty claims if they are indeed untrue. It really is a knock against the integrity of the architect.

TK

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brad,
Absolutely brilliant stuff, and Jeff, I'm still laughing! Its nice to cover all the bases!

I've said this once if not a thousand times, RTJ was a snake-oil salesman not unlike Mr. Haney from Green Acres.



Adam, I think RTJ's legacy to golf architecture is worthy to look at. The RTJ courses I have played, all seem to play much tougher then they look, yet, some of the features are more straight in your face--wanting you to challenge it in the same way its challenging you. (I hope that makes sense) In many cases he pulled it off--its just the school of thought I don't necessarily agree with--the lack of interesing cross bunkering or even bunkers set in the middle of fairways. He also took great pride in designing "pretty" golf courses, almost building a golf hole into a scene, instead of like Mackenzie or Tillinghast or Thomas, etc. where the scene was the golf hole, not just the back drop--It also flew into the face everything Max Behr represented to some extent, and as far as I'm concerned, that's sacralige!

[Brad Klein]

Tommy,

RTJ had two competely different legacies. One, worth debating here, is based largely on about half a dozen courses he did in the late 1940s and early 1950 and has to do with design innovation. The other, more notorious and regrettable, was culivated steadily since the early 1950s and involved his reputation as businessman, promoter and self-styled entrepreneur.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad, Tommy, et. al.,

Something is amiss.

How does one have a career that spans close to 70 years that produces 500 or so original designs with a good number of alterations on existing courses thrown in, and have that body of work described in the sole context of a snake oil salesman and promoter ?

Donald Ross gets a pass as a businessman but RTJ gets knocked for the same thing ?

In an era of modern communication where telephones, radio and television existed how did he manage to be so successful if his sole talent was that of a promoter/salesman ?

The golf world is a small one and word travels far and fast with respect to almost every issue affecting golf.
One doesn't "pull the wool" over 500 + client's eyes.

Didn't his product sell ?
Didn't his product become popular ?
Didn't others see his previous work before committing to sign up with him ?
Does his work endure to this day ?
Have his works been widely disfigured like so many other golf courses or do many remain mostly intact ?
How do you get brought in to alter courses that will be seen on National Television, time after time, year after year, if the product you produce isn't satisfactory to your client and the golfing world ?

You can be the greatest salesman in the world, but, if your product isn't accepted by your client, you'll be out of business in a year.  His product wasn't just accepted, it was embraced and diefied by American and International Golf.

RTJ produced what American and International Golf wanted, over a period of many years and you guys just can't understand that.

You don't design 500 golf courses and have it chalked up to salesmanship and promotion, totally discounting and disregarding the fact that the products he produced for his many clients were to their individual and collective satisfaction ?

The problem wasn't RTJ's, it was Golf's.
He was just at the right place at the right time.

[T_MacWood]

I agree with Brad, RTJ's early work is very interesting.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Here is a bio from The RTJ @ Cornell site:

http://bigred2.athletics.cornell.edu/golf/jones.html

[wsmorrison]

"Robert Trent Jones did introduce the runway tee concept...."

Tyler,
I don't know who invented the runway tee concept; it very well might be RTJ.  However, William Flynn was employing 50-70 yard tees on courses during the mid 1930s.  The drawings indicate that Normandy Shores (1936), a public design near Indian Creek in Miami Beach, had numerous long tees up to 70 yards long.  Perhaps they were employed because of the differing prevailing winds during the year.  Tees as long as 50 yards were indicated for Flynn's redesign of Sunnehanna (1937).  You cannot say that this became a predominant design feature of Flynn, there are only a handful of examples.  However, he was an early practitioner of the concept.  

How early and where do you find RTJ's implementation of runway tees?

[TEPaul]

Pat Mucci said;

"You don't design 500 golf courses and have it chalked up to salesmanship and promotion, totally discounting and disregarding the fact that the products he produced for his many clients were to their individual and collective satisfaction?
The problem wasn't RTJ's, it was Golf's.
He was just at the right place at the right time."

That most certainly is true. Describing RTJ as just a snake-oil salesman is completely distorting the historical record unless someone can prove somehow that approximately 500 cleints throughout the "Modern Age of Golf Architecture" were all a bunch of suckers! The important thing to do is to look carefully at RTJ's impact in the time he worked and of course compare all that he did as to how it endures in the perception of golfers generally compared to other architects of his time and other times.

Tom MacWood seems to like to compare parallels in the art forms of golf course architecture and building architecture. The primary years of RTJ, say the early 1950s to the early 1980s is a time those art forms probably should be compared--and maybe Tom MacWood should try to compare them.

It was a time of tremendous mass production in both art forms and so far neither building architecture nor the golf architecture of that time seems to be enduring very well.

How will people look at this era in building architecture and golf architecture say 50 years from now? My sense is probably not very favorable because mass production basically produces standardization and that never seems to endure well in an art and appreciation sense.

But the industry of golf architecture and golf architects should probably always thank RTJ above all others. It seems it was RTJ who made golf architecture and some of the architects in it big business. And from here on that will probably never change.

[Brad Klein]

Pat, I said RTJ had two reputations, and the second one derived from his first. I've recently replayed The Dunes Club and Peachtree and they are phenomenal - still. I have no doubt he was talented, but simply stated, he built up too big an empire, had a writer on staff (Red Hoffman) promoting him, got caught up with p.r. (invented the idea of "signature design" and "Open Doctor" and appeared on Johnny Carson), and was wheeling and dealing with his own land projects because he thought he could be a developer and lost a lot of money in the process. Plus he lost control of his work and delegated it all, often to less-talented proteges.