Avoiding Two Loops

[Paul_Turner]

Which architect had/has the lowest proportion of their courses in the 2 loops of 9 routing?

[BCrosby]

I'll guess C.B. MacDonald.

He didn't do many courses, but Mid-Ocean, Yale and NGLA (I think) are all out and back. (Though Yale has a bit of a loop.)

Bob

[Brian_Ewen]

James Braid .

[Jay Cox]

The routing of Yale is two loops of nine -- or, more completely, a loop of 2, then a loop of 7, then a loop of 9.  9 green is a quite short walk from 1 tee.

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum somewhere else, but what's so wrong with two loops of nine?  It seems like slavish adherence to a requirement that a course must be two loops of nine is not optimal.  But there is some benefit to returning nines:  As someone who often plays nine holes in the late afternoon, I greatly appreciate a course where I can play either half easily when it's not crowded...

[Forrest Richardson]

I am not sure this is at all about "avoiding". We have routed a few courses without two loops, and I suspect many architects have done so more than once. In the art of routing this would simply be the result of finding the best solution to a course.

Paul, is your use of the word "avoiding" aimed at a particular angle?

[Tripp_Davis]

Forrest - Get some sleep man!  

Paul - What exactly is the point?  While there are a good many golf courses in the UK that do not return, that, I would suggest, is large part due to the fact that golf in the late 1800's and early 1900's was not necessarily thought of as medal play, and I would suspect the Scots never thought of "quiting" before you finish.  "Noursishment" was something you did not to get at the turn, it was easily carried in a flask.

Whoever came up with the notion that the nines should return, made a mistake.  But it stuck and now we often have to live with it.  Fortunately, I currently have a project that will not have returning nines (the second course at The Tribute in Dallas), and I can tell you it made quite a difference in the ability to use the land in a better way.  Nine holes coming back to the clubhouse could have worked, but it would have been tight and the golf course would have suffered terribly.  We have 1,200 acres to work with and a mile and half of shoreline on the largest man made lake in Texas for the second course and thankfully I was able to talk our clients into not returning (it also gave him more house lots).  This course will very likely end up doing over 80% of its business in corporate outings (the first course at The Tribute we did is at about 85%), so it is not that big of deal anyway.

If at all possible, do not sacrifice the quality of the golf course setting and strategic flow simply to get the golfers back for a potty break.

Tripp Davis

Tripp Davis

[Tripp_Davis]

Reading my last post, (errors and signed off twice) maybe I need some sleep Forrest.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Paul,

Goes to show golf course architects are like lawyers, they can't just answer the question they have to tell you how much they know.

You are entirely and completely wrong about Zepplin, and if you continue to call them names I am calling INS

[Andy Levett]

Which course was first to be designed with two loops of nine?

[Forrest Richardson]

Many architects, Kelly, DO know a lot!

[Tyler Kearns]

Paul,

None of Stanley Thompson's big five courses (Capilano, Banff, Jasper, St. George's, Highlands Links) return to the clubhouse after nine holes (Banff now does under the new configuration of holes - not Thompson's original routing).

TK

[Paul_Turner]

I have nothing against two loops.  There are lots and lots of great courses in two loops.  I also think the older architects used it more than many think.  Which was why I asked.

I think Chicago was the first two loops?  Wasn't CBM's routing two loops?

I'd consider Yale and St George's to be close enough.

Kelly

Sorry to burst your bubble man  

[Forrest Richardson]

Portmarnock (Ireland) is probably the earliest example of purposeful routing in which two nine hole loops were created — one original 9-holes and then another. This may well have been a product of convenience; simply building one course and then adding to it. None-the-less, it remains as a poster child to the idea of two loops. (c. 1893)

Another reason that earlier courses were often laid out without regard for the returning nine configuration is that there was much less ability to alter the landscape — heavy equipment and artificial drainage were not a part of the early architect's toolbox. Therefore, it often was determined by the natural — mostly unaltered — terain to either not return at all, or to return at some arbitrary point in the round.

[BCrosby]

Isn't Muirfield an earlier two loop routing?

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

The present routing of Muirfield wasn't in play until 1920.  I don't think it returned at the ninth before that; certainly not as early as 1893.

[gookin]

Oakmont CC - 1902  It has two loops.