News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2005, 11:35:29 AM »
Take 'em to Painswick

And I really mean that.  It's a course that is a great equaliser with it's weird and unusual holes.  Where else could Doak and Goodale beat McEvoy and Hiseman ;)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 11:36:00 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tony_Chapman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2005, 11:47:37 AM »
I'm an 8 handicap on my best day, but with rare occasion I can still beat my scratch brother. He is younger, a big bomber and I can't beat him much anymore because I actually have him learning about the ground game and playing a few options every once in awhile. Unfortunately, because he lurks on this site and is "trying" to learn about architecture I think it is now impossible to beat him.

However, I will say that I took him down in the rain at Prairie Dunes (my 80 that day is possibly my best round ever) and on a cool December morning at Pinehurst #2 simply because I realized I could play the ball on the ground and I knew where to miss shots and not ever get in trouble.

Closest I have played him in recent years was this summer at Tobacco Road when my 79 didn't catch his 76. The next day it looked like I had never played the game before - ask Brian Gracely.  :P

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2005, 12:14:53 PM »
Tony

I guess that is one instance where you would not want use Tom Paul's ploy from post 24 ;)

Jim

henrye

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2005, 12:15:03 PM »
Bob I will try your book.  I myself am about an 16-18 handicap.  (I have a number of recent scores to enter from a recent vacation and our club is closed for the season.)  My 15 year old son is about a 6 or 7.  A few years ago (sadly when he was 13), we had some good matches.  It was always very exciting when he won a match.  Last year, as he continued to improve I adopted tactics to wear him down a bit - "bet I can make my 10 foot put'.  "Bet you miss that 3 footer".  He would get rattled and I could win some of our matches.  This vacation, I resorted to randomly calling out in his backswing "SWING HARD" or "SWING BATTER SWING".  Nothing seems to work now.  The difference is too great.  With my badly distraught ego I fear I am now relegated to asking for strokes.

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2005, 12:29:28 PM »
Tom Paul says:
"But I did get really good compared to those I played against around the green and green-end and I had all the confidence in the world in that area. How that paid off over time was just like that lady. I was very good at just making pars and grinding away for them if I had to (otherwise I guess I never  could've been a scratchman  ) and into the round I couldn't help notice what that generally did not my opponents."

True story--My father is paired against Tom in an early round of the Philadelphia area about 20 years ago. My father was by no means a power player, but I believe he may have been slightly longer than Tom at that time. the story goes that TEP on top of being relatively short off the tee was quite innacurate on this particular day (a rarity for him I assure you) and put on a scrambling and putting display the likes of which my father has still not seen duplicated. After playing some pretty good golf but still losing ground in the match my father found himself shaking hands on the 15th green and Tom's condolences were "boy Sully, you really hung in there a long time today". I am not suggesting my father was a better player than Tom because I don't think he was but reading Tom's post a little earlier reminded me of this story and I thought I'd retell it.

Jim

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2005, 01:08:21 PM »
Thanks, Jim - that's another one to add to the archives. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

tomgoutman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2005, 01:27:51 PM »
The only way I've ever beaten a substantially better golfer is by sinking lots of puts. The flat stick can be the great equalizer.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2005, 01:48:21 PM »
Tom, I read  your first post, and didn't read any of the others due to time constraints, but let me just say this about that:

How do you beat a golfer that's better then you? Simply get into his head. Not with cheap and unsportsmanlike smack or talk, but by chipping consistently good, making putts and saving pars. That gets into a good golfer's head everytime--EVERYTIME!

Make him think your the luckiest SOB in the world and you have him right where you want him. You have him on the defensive--And all you have to do is just concentrate on your game--not how your going to beat him--just concentrate on your game and your game only. don't figure out what he is trying to do, because then, he's in your head and that makes you lose your focus.

Also, I say wish only thw worst thigns to happen to your opponent. I don't care if he's your best friend either. Wish a tornado come and whisk him away, thus forfeiting the rest of the match to you. Wish him nothing but the worst luck in the world--this also helps big time because he then senses the negativity you have for him thus getting into his head even further.

You'll walk away a champion, yes you will, and you can buy him a victory drink after your all done--thus inserting a positive flair to the mix, thus making your friendship carry on for years!

BUT....

I'll never forgive Huckaby for placing the Armenian and myself against one another at the first King's Putter Cup. That just wasn't right. Huckaby knew it too! ;)

Mike Benham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2005, 01:52:56 PM »
I can't believe that nobody has mention cutting their opponents hamstring so they slice the ball all day long and eventually quit the game!

I believe that Jack Nicholson would recommend beating them with a 5 iron ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

ian

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2005, 01:53:05 PM »
Knowing when not to try hit a green in regulation seems to be the difference between an effective match play player and an ineffective one.

You want your opponent to always have to make something on each and every hole. Too many give too much away before getting to the green.

Even a great player gets upset when a hole they had is suddenly halved. Emotionally you have won the hole.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 01:54:33 PM by Ian Andrew »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2005, 02:25:23 PM »
For me,a midteen handicapper, the answer is to play smart,keep the ball in play, avoid disaster holes,bring my A short game and make a lot of putts. It has worked many times. The old adage-play one hole at a time- also works. Gamesmanship works both ways. If my opponent gives it, he better be able to take it.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andy Hughes

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2005, 02:27:18 PM »
Quote
In our club championship, there are no shots given or asked for.  Just as it should be for a club championship.  As a result, the 5s (we have about 10 players between 3 and +1)and above are really out of their league.
Sean, sorry, my mistake. I thought you were referring to a handicapped match.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

JSlonis

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2005, 02:32:54 PM »
Knowing when not to try hit a green in regulation seems to be the difference between an effective match play player and an ineffective one.
:o ??? :o ???

Ian,

I'm sorry, but I don't know any player good or bad that is going to intentionally miss a green on purpose.  Why would someone risk having to get up and down to potentially win or halve a hole, when in all likelyhood they'd be most likely to lose the hole??  If you know players that employ this technique, please send em' to Philly.  I'll have guys lining up around the block to play them. ;D

In my thinking, I beleive the opposite to be true.  I'd much rather keep hitting every green in regulation and put the pressure on my opponent  by forcing them to hit quality shots to keep up.  Yes, an unexpected save for par to halve a hole is annoying, but to missing greens on purpose is not a strategy you'd find endorsed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 02:40:06 PM by JSlonis »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2005, 02:36:00 PM »
Poison in his french fries

Brian_Gracely

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2005, 02:47:43 PM »
Jamie,

I read Ian's quote to mean something along the lines of "this is a REALLY long Par4 and I'd be pushing it to think that I can hit this long 2nd shot on the green (which would be in regulation).  The odds are I won't hit this shot and the penalty for a bad miss might be worse than if I layed up and tried to make a 4 with an up & down".
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 02:47:53 PM by Brian_Gracely »

frank_D

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2005, 02:49:18 PM »
brother TEPaul


according to a statement attributed to titanic thompson -

you play him for MORE than he can afford to lose

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2005, 02:57:49 PM »
Jaime

I think Ian's point was that there are times when an easy up and down (if it is clearly identifiable) would do more mental damage than a standard two putt. You will agree that there are some holes that are easier pars from five yards short of a green then on the green 50 feet from the hole, for example #5 at PVGC, #13 front right pin etc.

Sully

ian

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2005, 03:02:35 PM »
JSlonis,

I've seen most a matches lost from a bad decision in the trees or long rough where a player thinks that they can make a miracle shot to get out of trouble. The hole was lost in the players decision making process, not by their swing.

As Alice Dye has been known to try teach "a good player gets up and down more than half the time from inside a 100 yards; so pitch the ball out onto the fairway like you know you should." So stay in the hole as many have said.


Players don't intentional miss greens, but they often play to a side that they don't mind missing on, hoping to catch a corner of the green in the process.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 03:04:14 PM by Ian Andrew »

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2005, 03:11:40 PM »
You should've let the story about you and your dad up there, Ian - it was both entertaining and informative. For similar reasons, I generally underclub on most holes and my regular golf buddy never lets me hear the end of it! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JohnV

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2005, 03:19:01 PM »
On any given day, you can win a lot of money in Las Vegas (as I hope to do in about 10 days), but in the long run the house wins.  So it is with better vs lesser golfers.

But, for the real way to win, get a copy of Stephen Potter's Gamesmanship.  It is a really fun read about how to screw up your opponent.

We should all listen to George Pazin on this topic as no one here has more experience playing against better players. ;)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 03:19:24 PM by John Vander Borght »

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2005, 03:27:03 PM »
We should all listen to George Pazin on this topic as no one here has more experience playing against better players. ;)

Another early contender for post of the year! :)

The only problem is that the only golf matches I ever win are when I'm teamed up with someone like Jamie Slonis or Doug Wright who carries me to victory.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JSlonis

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2005, 03:43:46 PM »
Ian,

Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. :)  I would agree when in trouble that's it's almost always best to get the ball back in play than to try a riskier play that has a low percentage of getting on the green.  I didn't interpret your inital post to mean this.

I thought you were trying to suggest some "JEDI" mind games ;D...which in fact may work in a galaxy far, far away but probably not at your local muni.

TEPaul

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2005, 04:55:32 PM »
Sully:

You know I do remember that time against your Dad in the Philly Amateur. It was at Cedarbrook and it probably was more than 20 years ago. I just can't remember the details of that match against him that well probably because of all the stuff that happened to me in that tournament and just before it.

I think at that point I’d just sort of come out on that circuit for the first time, I think I might've been around 37 or 38---that might've been about my first or second year. I had just started to really play golf about 2-3 years before that and I think I won my club championship or something which sort of surprised me so I decided to go out on the circuit and see whether I could hang in there or get my brains beat out. At that point I just had no real point of reference other than my handicap had gotten low. I knew who your Dad was and some of the other guns from HVGC like Brookrerson and Gordon Brewer and such. I had the distinct feeling your Dad was sure a better player than me and then that match happened. In the next round I drew Bob—Bob, God I’m getting so old and senile now I can’t even think of his last name. Anyway, I think Bob (from Philmont, BTW) had won a Philly Am, or I know his brother had or maybe even both of them. Anyway, Bob, oh yeah, Bob Levy was a big strong guy and anyone could see this guy really had game. He hit it long and he hit it well. In that round, obviously the second round, it was really raining….

Oh wait, let me go back and tell you that back then the 36 hole Patterson Cup combined with the 36 hole qualifier for the Philly Am made up the 72 holes of the Silver Cross, and as you know that’s the 72 hole Philadelphia Stroke Play Championship. I’d done really well in the Patterson Cup probably finishing in the top 3 or top 5 or something and with about three holes left in the 36 hole qualifying for the Philly Am at Cedarbrook one of my fellow competitors, Mike Rose, informs me if I can par the next three holes I have a good shot at winning the Silver Cross Championship. He said he had already calculated his chances of winning it but he’d shot himself out of it at that point and by his calculations Brookrerson was the guy I needed to beat. He even said something like---let me go first and I’m gonna bring you home----but by that point I’d sort of become a rules expert (only because I hate sitting on the toilet with nothing to read and by that time I’d read the entire Decisions on the Rules of Golf :) ) and I told him a fellow competitor really couldn’t do stuff like that without DQing the both of us. He said---well OK, then but take my word for it if you par in you have a very good shot at winning the Silver Cross by his calculations. At that point I don’t think I’d even heard of the Silver Cross. So I parred the next two holes and on the last hole—a par 3 (obviously the 9th at Cedarbrook) I hit the ball onto the back of the green, and when I got up there—there was Brookrerson standing on the back of the green with that big Cheshire cat grin on his face. I think he asked me if I two putted what I’d shoot and when I told him he said---well if you two putt you’ll tie me for the Silver Cross Championship! It sure wasn’t an easy putt ---way down the hill with a big break but I’ll let you guess what I did. So I lost the Silver Cross to him by one shot!

So, anyway, in the second round or whatever it was I drew Bob Levy, it was pouring rain and he hit the ball beautifully the whole day and since I absolutely hate playing in the rain I basically couldn’t get the ball off the ground the entire round hitting one roller off the tees after another, laying up in front of almost every par 4 from there and one putting almost ever single green for par as Levy hit the ball right down the middle and long on every fairway, hit just about every green and three putted 4-5 times and I beat him something like 3 and 2. For that one I really did apologize to him and kept on apologizing to him for years after that, and although I haven’t seen him in years if I run into him again  I’ll apologize to him for that again.

In the next round I ran into the infamous Michael Nilon for the first time who I’d heard a lot about and his game too. I think I told him on the first tee I’d heard a lot about him and he said something like----why’s that, did you hear about how easy it is to get sued by me? I don’t remember that much about that round against Nilon other than the fact that he was definitely getting pretty annoyed at the constant junk I was throwing at him on and around the greens and unbelievably on the 18th hole I hit my approach into the right greenside bunker, sunk the bunker shot for birdie and that was the end of Nilon.

In the semi-finals against Brian Rothaus I was basically doing the same thing to him and somewhere around the middle of the second nine it occurred to me that maybe a golfer like me shouldn’t really be doing this crap to golfers like these guys and I got sort of keyed up, made a couple of really stupid mistakes, and he beat me, and he went on to win the Philly Am on Sunday.

But the point of all this is to let David Moriarty know that maybe what he should do is stop thinking about every single tee to green strategic intricacy under the sun like driving the ball close to OB left for the best angle in and just practice the Beejesus out of his short game like I must have done, and he too can skin cats who’re better than he is with regularity by simply pissing them off with short game and putting junk like I used do probably a whole lot more often than I should have! I guess I'm telling him to just practice short game strategies, basically it's easler to do than the long game and he too might be like me someday----basically a short-driving bogeyman who actually became sort of a fake scratchman through short game and putting junk wizardry!

;) Oh well


« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 05:28:02 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2005, 05:05:49 PM »
You know Sully, I look at the games today (mostly while officiating) of guys like you, Slonis, Mcdermott, even those two energizer bunnies McGuinness and Lange, or a young ball striker like Gui Costin and I really do wonder how in the world I ever could have done some of the things I did sometimes to guys back then who were basically at the same level back then you guys are now. It's amazing but I really do think the way you guys hit the ball now is so much different than the way it was back even then which really isn't all that long ago when you think about it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 05:07:13 PM by TEPaul »

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2005, 05:14:31 PM »
Thanks for sharing those stories, Tom.

The interesting thing to me is to relate this to someone like DLIII. We constantly hear a handful of individuals on this site who say he hasn't lived up to his talent, but I maintain that the real measure of talent is the ability to do what it takes to win. By that standard, you were a better player than those guys that were thought by most - including yourself - to be better than you.

To me, that's the only real measure of who is better - whoever wins. This is certainly anathema to the crowd (and I think it's most) who feel that the superior ball striker is "better" and anathema to the crowd that feel a course should reward said "better" player.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04