How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?

[wsmorrison]

If anyone is going to play a match with Tom Paul, the night before drop off a couple of cases of red wine in front of his house, ring the doorbell and leave.  After he carries them in, and samples a glass or 5, his shoulder (and maybe his head) will be hurting so bad the next day that your chances of beating him will surely increase by 0.10%

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I try to play a course which I am very familiar to allow my short game to blossum. Then I work very hard to stay within my game all day notwithstanding his greater distance etc. ie keep making pars. The only gamesmenship I practice is to compliment him on his length, good shots etc hoping he will hit a driver or go for the pin somewhere he should not.

[JESII]

An all-time great amateur by the name of Bill Hyndman was very well known for his gamesmanship and in our 'soda' matches when I was 15-20 he would always rave about how great a putter I was, how I never miss a putt inside 8 feet. No kidding this 75 year old would get in my head on the first green when I would make a 6 footer for par and just destroy me with over-confidence. It works wonders, not that I would ever try such a thing.

Sully

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

My father helped put Bill into the insurance business so I knew him for many years.  

Bill didn't need to physch out anyone.
He was a great, great player.

I've observed him up close, having played with him competitively, and his game and his record speak for themselves.  He was a world class player.

You too can join Steve Lang in the ranks of the delusional.

Tell me how an 18 handicap goes about the course playing steady golf ?  It's a contradiction in terms.

So that I may put your remarks in context, could you and Steve tell me what your lowest handicap was.

Steve Lang,

Why blame me for the oversights of others ?

Wayne Morrison,

I tried that strategy years ago when I had to play Alan Miller, an All American from The University of Georgia and a Walker Cupper in the second round of the North South Amateur.

In his first match I believe he was 8 under for the first 9 holes, demolished his opponent, and continued to play in the hopes of setting the course record at Pinehurst # 2.

When we walked of the golf course after he had beaten me,
I told him that I had hoped that the partying that we had done the night before might have affected his game.
He quickly informed me that the previous night was no different from any other night in college, so he was well acclimated to heavy partying and ready to play the next day.
In retrospect I should have tried to convince him to stay home and get a good night's sleep.

When the USGA, in 1979 asked about the requirements to establish a Mid-Amateur, I indicated that a real job and at least two dependents be the criteria, rather then a handicap number.  Alan's college life style and potential post graduate life style weren't lost on me.

Walter Hagen, Tommy Armour, John Daly and a few others might also refute your method.

[Scott Coan]

A perfect example of this question is how Darren Clarke beat Tiger in the WGC World Match Play a few years back.

Tiger was continually ripping his drives straight down the middle of the fairway some 25-50 yards past Clarkey.  One would think Tiget had the advantage.

Darren did not let this phase him and proceeded to hit his 200 yard 5 irons to 15-20 feet.  All of a sudden Tigers 150 yard 9 iron shots became a whole lot more difficult.

Moral of the story?  Always maintain pressure on your opponent.  By that I mean never, ever, ever take yourself out of a golf hole in one swing.  If he bashes it 300 yards down the middle, don't chase him.  Put it on the fairway and then on or near the green.

You must be like a gnat flying all around his head.  You are in every hole and just won't go away.  If you sink some puts you just might win on the day.

[Tony Petersen]

  Harry Vardon had more than a little insight into controlling your game and making the shots when they need to be made. Everyone has been in the zone, if but for a couple holes, so the potential is there for everyone... And remember, the game of golf is 90% mental and 10% mental

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Coan,

Would you equate Darren Clarke's game to that of a bogey golfer ?

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Tom Paul, as you know, has a torn rotator cuff and refuses to do any physical therapy.  If he saw that Trojan horse in the form of a couple of cases of wine, the heavy lifting would be sure to give him problems.  Now he can still get the ball in the hole, last time we played he was 4 under after 8 holes but he had to quit.  He's much more interested in architecture than playing these days but I wish he'd get on a rehab program.  

I asked him if he ever got to build a golf course how's he gonna drive into office at the sound of the cannon, he said matter-of-fact "I'll just use an 8-iron, I can always hit that."

[Scott Coan]

Patrick_Mucci,

The forum asks "How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?"  By anyone's measure Tiger is clearly better than Darren Clarke.  I was on no way inferring that Darren is a bogey golfer, quite the opposite.  He went about his business, played the course and not the man, and came away with the most significant victory of his career.  And he did this by (1) keeping his ball in play, (2) putting his approach shots on the green, and (3) nailing some puts.

Regards,
Scott  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Coan,

None of us know what Darren Clarke's intent or strategy was.

He may have been aiming at the right side of the fairways, pulled every tee shot and ended up in the left side of the fairway.  Does that mean he played steady or was lucky ?

In the ultimate, he played better then Tiger that day.
But, he possesses the talent to do so.
It's not like he won the lottery to get there.

Unless Darren and Tiger were to reveal their intent and grade the execution of every shot in the context of intent, I don't think you or anybody else can tell us how they played that day.  You only saw the results, not the intent.

Wayne Morrison,

Did I hear you correctly ?

TEPaul has a torn rotator cuff, but refuses to engage in physical therapy or rehabilitation ?

Now you know why I call him an idiot savant.

[JESII]

JES II,

My father helped put Bill into the insurance business so I knew him for many years.  

Bill didn't need to physch out anyone.
He was a great, great player.

I've observed him up close, having played with him competitively, and his game and his record speak for themselves.  He was a world class player.

You too can join Steve Lang in the ranks of the delusional.

Tell me how an 18 handicap goes about the course playing steady golf ?  It's a contradiction in terms.

So that I may put your remarks in context, could you and Steve tell me what your lowest handicap was.

Pat

Did my post mislead you? Am I, in some way, denigrating Big Bill's game? You will not find anyone, anywhere with more respect and admiration for Bill Hyndman's accomplishments as a person and a player. If you are suggesting I am either wrong or lying you need to do a little more homework, sorry.

Perhaps your personal relationship with him explains your perception of his on course style, I would hate to think it is the other reason . Make no mistake, he was pure gamesman. One of the greatest ever I would say, although I have no way to prove that. His record is nearly unmatched in the ranks of lifetime amateurs and the ages at which he achieved his most success is all the more reason to admire him.

You are suggesting only lesser class players need resort to the use of gamesmanship. if that is so how do you explain the stories of Walter Hagen, Sam Snead, or even Tiger Woods? If you don't think Bill Hyndman was a gamesman, you are immediately appointed captain of the delusional train Steve Lang and I are riding.

As to STEADY GOLF, you seem really fixated on this term so I will play along. A bogey golfer plays within himself to keep his mind on an even keel. You are confusing steady with good (ie scratch or better) when the two have nothing to do with one another.

STEADY GOLF is the process of determinig and attempting the shots that produce the lowest cummulative stress through the course of a hole and a round. A bogey golfer has every bit as much ability to do this as does the scratch, possibly more so. For the scratch to play to their handicap they must take a certain degree of risk in the course of a round, while the bogey player (if they are playing for bogey) has the option to hit an ultra conservative shot if they deem it prudent.

My lowest lifetime handicap is hopefully still to come, but to date it is scratch or slightly lower. Please expand on the context that helps you with, I am curious.

Jim

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did my post mislead you? Am I, in some way, denigrating Big Bill's game? Where did I say that ?[/color]

You will not find anyone, anywhere with more respect and admiration for Bill Hyndman's accomplishments as a person and a player.

If you are suggesting I am either wrong or lying you need to do a little more homework, sorry.

Where did I say that ?[/color]

Perhaps your personal relationship with him explains your perception of his on course style, I would hate to think it is the other reason .

Make no mistake, he was pure gamesman. One of the greatest ever I would say, although I have no way to prove that.

Then, how can you say that ?[/color]

His record is nearly unmatched in the ranks of lifetime amateurs and the ages at which he achieved his most success is all the more reason to admire him.

You are suggesting only lesser class players need resort to the use of gamesmanship.  

Where did I suggest that ?[/color]

if that is so how do you explain the stories of Walter Hagen, Sam Snead, or even Tiger Woods?

Stories ?  Which ones ?  Recounted by whom ?
My dad was friendly with Walter Hagen and very friendly with Sam Snead.  I accompanied him on many rounds with Snead.  Snead usually won his matches with amateurs on the first tee.

You have to understand the life of a Pro in Hagen and Snead's day, and from where their sources of revenue were derived.[/color]

If you don't think Bill Hyndman was a gamesman, you are immediately appointed captain of the delusional train Steve Lang and I are riding.

How many times did you play competitive matches with Bill ?

In all the times I was in his company, and the company of golfers who competed against him, he was always held in high regard as a gentleman, not a gamesman, but perhaps you have more personal experience with him then either my dad, myself or our golfing friends.[/color]

As to STEADY GOLF, you seem really fixated on this term so I will play along. A bogey golfer plays within himself to keep his mind on an even keel.

This is where you get delusional again.  18 handicappers can't keep their games or their minds on an even keel, it's beyond their ability, mentally and physically.[/color]

You are confusing steady with good (ie scratch or better) when the two have nothing to do with one another.
I'm not confusing anything.
You fail to understand the absurdity of your position, that 18 handicappers have absolute control over their games.
Nothing could be further from the truth.[/color]

STEADY GOLF is the process of determinig and attempting the shots that produce the lowest cummulative stress through the course of a hole and a round.

NO, "Steady Golf" is PRODUCING and evenly distributed game vis a vis shot patterns.[/color]

A bogey golfer has every bit as much ability to do this as does the scratch, possibly more so.

As John McEnroe said, "you can't be serious" or, you're completely delusional.  Please reread your above statement.
Even the idiot savant, TEPaul, would never make such an absurd statement.[/color]

For the scratch to play to their handicap they must take a certain degree of risk in the course of a round, while the bogey player (if they are playing for bogey) has the option to hit an ultra conservative shot if they deem it prudent.
Don't take this personally, but you just don't get it.
0 handicaps need take little risk in the course of their rounds and their ability to consistently perform insures steady play.
The 18 handicap, with wildly divergent shot patterns encounters far greater risks with every shot.

Please, tell me you understand that principle.[/color]

My lowest lifetime handicap is hopefully still to come, but to date it is scratch or slightly lower. Please expand on the context that helps you with, I am curious.

Getting to a scratch handicap is a process that takes time as the golfer works through the scoring stages of his game.

A scratch golfer was at one time an 18 handicapper and as such understands both games, (except in your case).
Whereas, a player that has never been below 18 has never experienced playing as a scratch.  He has a void in his knowledge or data base, and can't make the interpolations necessary to understand the game of a scratch player, mentally or physically.[/color]

[Steve Curry]

Pat,

As a 19 handicap who has only ever been as low as 12, I beg to differ.  Granted I have only read your last post with JESII quotes.  I understand the game better than most good golfers I know, many of which are far more capable of physical repetition, a mindless activity.  I am not saying that all great golfers are mindless only that a large attribute of their status is mindless ability.


Steve

[TEPaul]

Pat Mucci said:

"NO, "Steady Golf" is PRODUCING and evenly distributed game vis a vis shot patterns."

Jeeeeesus Christ----do you believe this Pat Mucci? What the hell is that supposed to mean---they hook the ball and slice the ball an equal amount of times?   What about the low handicap golfer who pretty much just hits the ball straight?

Pat:

What am I going to have to do with you next, put you back in sixth grade English class?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I'm not sure you should be saying you or anyone you know knew Bill Hyndman and the way he was on and around a golf course better than young Jim Sullivan Jr did. He pretty much grew up with Big Bill right there. Hyndman lived right behind the 8th green of HVGC (Sullivan's club) after all.

[Steve Lang]

 

Pat,

You need data to improve your context?  Here you go.. my lowest official USGA Handicap Index reached to date has been 5.3  

BTW.. I'm wondering how you know so much about delusional psychosis?



 

[Mike_Golden]

We have an annual net match play tournament at our club that is a blind draw so always has some interesting stories.  Here are two of mine plus one from our club championship tournament where I blew a match to a friend:

#1:  How to beat someone when you give him 33 shots (that's right, 33):

This very nice, older guy with a 39 handicap and I were matched up in the second round of the net match play.   I found myself  4 down after 5 holes.  I won the 6th (a par 5) by scraping a par out and he probably made a 9.  I then birdied the par 3 8th to get a HALF as he hit it on the green and made 4 (luckily).  Somehow, I got back to even after 16, made a 12 foot putt for par on 17 to stay square, and then won the par 5 18th because this guy was totally intimidated by the par 5's (I won all of them) and didn't finish the hole (I was on the green in regulation).  The secret to this win was to just hang in there and don't do anything stupid-I remember hitting a 7 iron second shot on the 6th just to make sure I stayed in play because my opponent was out of the hole.

#2:  How to lose to someone when you should have beaten him:

In these net play matches, many of the strokes at Lake Merced come early-1,4,5, 7, and 10-and then late (17, 18)-so if you are giving away 5-6 shots there is a stretch from 11-16 where it's pretty much even up.  I always figure that if I get to 11 close I can get ahead and hopefully close out the match before 17 (which is a hole I play pretty well anyway).  So here I am in this quarterfinal match actually 1 up against a 14 handicap standing on the 11th tee.  In my mind, the match is over-I'd already won 3 matches in this tournament consecutively after being 2-4 holes behind early-which is exactly how I lost the match as my opponent parred 11, 12, 13, and 14 to get up 1 and eventually I yanked one into the trees on 16 (a non-stroke, short par 4) and lost the match 3 and 2.  So, rule #2 about net matchplay, NEVER TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED.

#3:  How to lose when comfortably ahead

I'm playing a friend in the club championship matchplay (consolation round) and was 2 up after 9 holes. I'm crushing the ball, hitting almost every green in regulation, and well in control.  We're playing the back tees at Lake Merced, a very tough routing, and I'm ready (at least in my mind) for the next round and probably the finals of the consolation.  On 10 I am on the green 25 feet above the hole while my opponent is off the green in 3 and 20 yards short.  He then proceeds to chip in for par, I 3 putt, lose the hole, and, totally unnerved, lose the next 4 holes as well (I think he made all pars but can't really remember, it's too painful , even now), and lose the match.  So, another lesson learned about match play-1 HOLE is 1 HOLE, fawgeddabowtit!!!!

I feel better now, thanks for listening

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I'm not sure you should be saying you or anyone you know knew Bill Hyndman and the way he was on and around a golf course better than young Jim Sullivan Jr did.

And how old was Jim Sullivan Jr when Bill Hyndman was 30 ?
How old was he when Bill was 40 ?
How old was he when Bill was 50 ?
How old was he when Bill was 60 ?[/color]

He pretty much grew up with Big Bill right there. Hyndman lived right behind the 8th green of HVGC (Sullivan's club) after all.

Did Jim ever play a SINGLE competitive round with Bill when Bill was in his prime ?

I grew up in the same neighborhood as Grover Cleveland but wouldn't say that we were contemporaries.

He didn't even consult with me when he named that city in Ohio.[/color]

Sean Arble,

Welcome to the ranks of the delusional.

Another voice that thinks that 18 and 18 + handicappers have steady games.

Steve Lang,

After serving for the last five years as TEPaul's guardian, trustee, custodian and ward, I'm extremely familiar with delusional psychosis.

Stephen Curry,

I'm permited to discuss TEPaul's case/situation on a limited basis.  But, as his guardian, I do object to your refering to his mindless abilities.  The term "idiot savant" would be kinder and more acceptable.

[JESII]

Patrick Mucci

Perhaps it has been to long in between posts to keep the thread alive, but in reading your posts you might want to start a new thread under the heading of whatever your goal is with this line of conversation, and I will meet you there.

"How do you you beat a golfer who's better than you?"

Don't forget the topic.

As to your post #116, you infer through the first half of post #108 all of the things you question, if you want to refute that, fine then you agree with my statements throughout.

Answers to post #123, I was born in November of 1974, I believe Big Bill was born close to 1915. Lets say he was 60 years older than I, and passed away at about 85.

The greatest thing about Big Bill was that he made me believe he wanted to beat me for that soda as much as he wanted to win the US Senior Amateur that same year. He would bring the best out in you by demanding your best to stay in the match with him. This made each of us who played golf with him at this point in his (and our) life (lives) better players.

You seem to suggest that you are a contemporary of his and have a multitude of experiences in competitive situations that would entertain and enlighten those of us who knew or knew of him, please relate some of those.

P.S. If 'soda' matches count as competition I played about 50 competitive rounds with Bill Hyndman, if not I have none to speak of unfortunately and would love to hear about any of yours. Please do not hide behind inferences with this request, you clearly know Bill Hyndman in official competition much better than I and I (plus many others on here) would love to hear as much as possible about him.

"You have to understand the life of a Pro in Hagen and Snead's day, and from where their sources of revenue were derived." Does this mean they used gamesmanship, but I should view it differently with respect to golf today? I don't view gamesmanship in a negative light at all if that helps.

Jim Sullivan

[TEPaul]

Pat:

From being around this district for about 30 years now it always appeared to me and most others that HVGC was pretty much a golf factory--the club has basically always had a great junior program and the amount of really good players the club turned out over the decades is pretty amazing. Bill Hyndman was probably the most famous of them all but there were plenty of others. It looked to me every time I went over there and it was plenty that the club was a true golf culture--very tight. Bill Hyndman lived right there behind the 8th green, he had children who were very good players, Jim Sullivan's father was one of them and Jim Jr was probably one of the best the club ever produced. Those golfers, all of them, every age, seemed to take very great interest in each other and obviously they knew just about all there was to know about each other and their games. There're things like the GAP team matches (Suburban League) they all play in together going back forever and there're a ton of tournaments I'm sure most all of them played in together at one time or another plus just daily play.

So I really won't be questioning how well Jim Sullivan Jr knew Bill Hyndman or his game if I were you, or using some useless analogy of Grover Cleveland and your town or whatever that was---the whole thing just comes off as stupid. You should be asking Jim Jr about Hyndman and his game not trying to tell him something you think he doesn't know.

[JESII]

Tom

Thank you again for those words, and you are right in your view of the HVCC golf fraternity.

You know the funny thing is Pat Mucci may very well have known Bill Hyndman better than I. I only really spent about 6 or 7 years with him, although it was alot of time in those years, and it sounds as though Patrick knew him for a much longer period. I simply relayed an example of gamesmanship and he seemed to take it as a personal attack.

Sully

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

According to Jim, when Jim Sullivan was 20 Bill was 80 years old.  That should tell you all you need to know about them playing in competitions as peers.

Jim made the statement that Bill was a "gamesman" and used "gamesmanship" in his play, and I took exception to that statement because in every dealing I had with Bill, in competitive and friendly matches, he was a gentleman and not a "gamesman".  My father felt the same way as did Chet Sanok another fabulous golfer and contemporary of Bill's, as well as other men I know who played with him in social and competitive settings.

I'll again repeat that Bill's game spoke for itself.  He was a world class golfer who didn't need wise guy conduct to win matches or produce good scores.

Jim Sullivan,

NO, soda matches don't count.

One of the great things about golf is the willingness of good or great players to invest their time in junior golfers,
to encourage young kids to take up and love the game as they do.

The role he played with you was not one of a competitor, but that of a mentor.

You seem to have forgotten your own words, so let me repost them for you.

Post # 107

"Bill Hyndman was very well known for his gamesmanship"

Post # 115

"Make no mistake, he was pure gamesman.
One of the greatest I would say.
ALTHOUGH, I HAVE NO WAY TO PROVE THAT."

So you make an allegation, and admit in making the allegation that you have NO WAY TO PROVE IT.  
Isn't that called, "smear tactics" ?

I tell you that in all of my experiences and my father's experiences with Bill, socially and competitively, that he never acted as a gamesman, but, only as a gentleman, and you want to refute that without an iota of substantiating fact.

I don't have to recount my experiences with Bill or my dad's experiences or anyone else's experiences.  I only need recount that in all the times I/we played with him, Bill conducted himself as a gentleman on the golf course, in both social and competitive settings.

Perhaps your lack of experience as a peer and your limited views as a teenager led you to mis-characterize him.

[Steve Lang]

 

Pat Mucci,

OK, I need help..  While you must certainly be stressed out by the obvious demands with TEP.. How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?   I don't see it anywhere on this thread or have I missed it?

Or as a null hypothesis case..  Since you presently have three clubs were you're registered for posting under GHIN as 5.6 index player, but have not posted anything since October 2004, and have apparently been a lower index player during your long experience.. how would someone of lower status beat you in competition?  Could they even compete?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lang,

As Bob Huntley pointed out, you don't.

On a consistent basis the better golfer will win.

That doesn't mean that you can't, on a given occassion, it just means that day in and day out the better golfer will win.

I"ve always liked playing against golfers acknowledged to be better then me, with one glaring exception.  I enjoy playing against Ran.

If I was to reflect on why I upset them when they were supposed to beat me, I'd have to say, because I wanted to beat them, that I thrived on beating them.  That I maintained a positive attitude in the face of adversity and/or overwhelming odds.

On matches that I lost to better players, in general, one of two things occured.  
# 1, they clearly outplayed me.
# 2, I beat myself, either mentally, physically or both.

On # 1, there was nothing I could do.  There is no DEFENSE in golf.  Which is one of the reasons that I want the STYMIE returned to match play.

On # 2, in retrospect, there were things I could have done, but didn't, and in most cases, it had to do with decisions rather then execution, although, faulty execution certainly has been a factor.

With respect to decisions, that's where I think being tournament tough, having that additional competitive edge comes in to play.

One of the elements of competition that I've always been fascinated by is:  come from behind victories.
How did they occur, what was each parties view of the chain of events leading to victory and defeat.

The will to win, momentum, luck, clear thinking and believing in yourself all enter into the fray.  Having a good, well rounded game doesn't hurt either.

I don't think there is a magic formula, a secret to winning.
Each golfer, in their own way, must manage everything about their game to produce their best competitive golf and hope that it is sufficient to overcome their opponent.

Jim Sullivan,

I did take your remarks regarding Bill Hyndman and "gamesmanship" in a denigrating context.
If that wasn't your intent let's chalk it up to a misunderstanding or a difference of opinion on the meaning of the word, "gamesmanship".

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I definitely don't think being a gentleman and using a certain degree of gamesmanship are mutually exclusive although perhaps you do. I think Bill Hyndman was very well known around here for being a gentleman but also using  gamesmanship. I certainly never heard he was underhanded or mean-spirited about it though. I sure have known plenty of golfers who ribbed oponents in some subtle ways that could be classified as gamesmanship but rarely have I seen it become ungentlemanly. Not that I've never seen it become ungentlemanly---I certainly have seen that too.