How do you beat a golfer who's better than you?

[TEPaul]

I'm starting this thread for the benefit of David Moriarty because although I could be entirely wrong I have a hunch this is where he's really trying to go with his discussions on the strategies of golf courses, particularly for the bogey golfer.

I'm not sure if he's trying to understand the subject of strategies as well as he can so he can just do better against say Rustic Canyon or do that and also do the best he can against whomever he plays there (or anywhere else). Maybe it's a little of both for him.

So, I think a discussion of "how do you beat a golfer who's better than you?" should be interesting. What do I mean by better? I guess I'd have to say a golfer who has more potential than you do---eg a better ball striker, longer, lower handicap, whatever etc. So as not to stilt this discussion it's probably better to compare apples to apples and in that context I mean playing against players who are probably better than you are on the flat. Obviously that's hard to do with a bogeyman (app 18 handicapper) vs a scratchman, but I'm sure you get the point.

I get the feeling that DavidM sometimes feels that the scratchman golfer looks down on the bogeyman golfer even in the sense that the bogeyman golfer doesn't know how to use golf strategies as intelligently as the scratchman does. And to some degree that's probably true---scratchmen golfers probably do look down on golfers who're higher handicppers than them! To some extent that's a dangerous thing to do.

I think it is a dangerous thing to do because a scratchman golfer can lose to a golfer who really isn't as good as he is (potentially) in a heartbeat if he's not thinking as well as his apparently less good opponent.

If some of these things really are what David Moriarty is  thinking about than we probably have a lot in common. I wasn't a bogeyman, I was a scratchman for years but I always felt that many of the golfers I competed against were better than me, at least they were potentially.

So how do you go about beating a golfer who's better than you? In my opinion, it has a whole lot more to do with things than just luck. It has a whole lot to do with both understanding well and using strategies that are the absolute best for you while simply watching a golfer who's probably better than you not do that for various reasons (that sometimes can get pretty surprising and even funny).

It's probably less useful to just talk about this kind of thing in a complete conceptual or philosophical way. Real experiences are probably more telling in the end.

[A_Clay_Man]

It's been my experoience that too many golfers, are too highly motivated, to beat their opponent. Even people they just got paired with, and have no match with, they are focused on beating this other person. Talk about thinking about the wrong thing.

 Mostly relating this to match play, the way to beat a better player ,is way down deep within oneself.

The strategic decisions are minimal, compared to the minds eye (and ear) when attempting each stroke.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
This happened for me in 1986.

After a nearly 20 year hiatus from golf I was lured back by an old friend whose handicap was around -4. Needless to say he would regularly kick my butt even with the strokes.
I got bit by that old bug again so I spent quite a bit of time practicing and was narrowing the gap some but was unable to get to him. About this time I met a great Pro (Rick Bradshaw, who now owns a golf school with Jim Dent in Fla.) who gave me 3 lessons. Now the practice started to pay off.
I finally got to my old friend on the first tee at Hotchkiss one afternoon. He asked me how many strokes I wanted and I said "Johnny, I don't need any". He was still my better but I knew the course well, I had nothing to lose and I really tried to play the first few holes well. It happened and he self destructed. We both laugh about it to this day.

[A_Clay_Man]

Oh yeah, then there's string theory that leaves it all up to electro-magnetic activity.

JK, Accepting strokes on the first, is tat amount to losing before one starts.

[mike_malone]

 " Do you always have that little loop in your backswing?"

[TEPaul]

" Do you always have that little loop in your backswing?"

Mike:

Jay Sigel used to occasionally say something like;

"Do you think you inhale or exhale on your backswing?"

(Of course he really didn't need to say anything---he was pretty much going to beat you no matter what you thought!)  

[TEPaul]

So, Adam, what are you saying here---that you think it's a pretty poor idea to even try to compete in golf?  

(But I guess I know what you mean. I had a PARTNER who I played with in a particular tournament who didn't just compete against our opponents he'd actually seemed to compete against me too! It got even odder since that tournament I played with him in for about 20 years was an alternate shot tournament!).

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- George put it well, on another thread when he used "Internal".

 Over-confidence seemed to play a big role in many match play tournaments, I've played. Maybe it was me and my first match, that taught me that lesson, as I was badly beat by an Octagenarian Austrailian orphan. The familiarity that existed at our club in PG, was such, that we'd know who was the better golfer, yet the victor was on many occasions, the under-dog.  

It's all very complicated and I believe, is inter-related to the expectations theories of the individuals.

[mike_malone]

 While covering the Match Play Championship a few years ago David Feherty made a great suggestion.

    Your ball is several yards behind your opponent. You go up to his ball and drop your bag. He then likely hits your ball.

 Mind you as a practicing Quaker I would never employ any of these tactics

[TEPaul]

Mike:

The neat thing about Feherty, I think, is all his situational humour really is original stuff! For humour in golf commentating there's never been anyone as good as Feherty and I doubt there ever will be. Many of those who knew Feherty well during his playing days have said he was too damn smart to play golf well---that basically the game never stopped driving him crazy!  

[ForkaB]

In terms of the question at hand, didn't Hogan say something to the effect of, "Play fewer strokes?"  In fact, this is all needs be done and can be done--as long as your "A" game is better than his "C" game, you can beat anybody (and be beaten by anybody, if vice versa).

I've beaten a few very good players, and the only common denominator I can think of in those matches is that I thought I could win, never felt like I was going to miss a shot, and "knew" that I could get up and down if I did.  I think this self-confidence also rattled my superior opponents, reinforcing my self-confidence in the bargain.

Of course I have had many more situations where I let much better players of the hook after gaining an advantage.  Usually this was due to my losing confidence, making a bad shot/decision or two and letting the better player back in the game.  The stupidest of these decisions was in a match with a re-instated mini-tour player, whom I had set up to believe that I had also played on a mini-tour.  Fortunately I had the game that day to back up that myth and I was 1 up through 7 and could have been 3-4 up if my opponent hadn't holed a few very missable putts.  After I striped a ball down the middle on 8 he asked me what mini-tour I had played on, and I made the mistake of saying it was a tennis mini-tour.  Well, after that he birdied 3 of the next 5 holes and the rest is history......

[GeoffreyC]

I'd be curious to know from those with David M's point of view just how much of the golf that they play using those tactics is in either matches where their own money is on the line or in tournaments where there are consequences for their mistakes?

I know from personal experience that a large % of my play years ago when a member at my town course or my early (happy) days at Yale GC were such matches and I was a much tougher and better "grinder" and player due to the consequences of each shot. My current more "intelectual" (ie- looking at the land and the features) mode of play for most of my rounds certainly has altered my concentration as far as scoring and doing what it takes to get the ball in the hole.

Would David or others really challenge the left side of #2 at Rustic (given their abilities) in a stroke play qualifier for the club championship?

[Bill Gayne]

The best strategy for the bogeyman is to play conservative mistake free golf. This grinding will put extended pressure on the scratch player. The bogeyman needs to play for bogey and insure that he can make bogey (forget par).

He's getting 18 strokes, so the scratch player needs to play a perfect round to maintain his edge and get a halve. The problem is when the bogeyman gets aggressive and tries to match a shot or play that the scratch player makes.

The bogeyman can not be aggressive and expect to win. Often the mind set on the first tee for the bogeyman is not play conservative rather it's "I'm going to be forced to hit some great shots today because the I'm playing a great player." Put the pressure to grind on the low handicapper.  

[Andy Hughes]

A 8 or 9 capper such as myself can't really win the club championship.  I may get a lucky draw (the rounds are not seeded for some reason) and pull an opponent no better than myself, but that won't take me to the final!  I more or less have to ignore the match and play the course, hoping the low capper screws up.  This isn't very likely to happen over a 36 hole final against a county player (most likely).

Sean, I've never quite understood why this is so.  If everyone's handicaps are correctly gotten, why would an 8 not be able to beat a 2, or why would an 18 have a better chance against the same 2?
It always seemed intuitively to me that the low handicapper would actually be at a bit of a disadvantage as he has no margin for error, nothing to fall back upon.

[TEPaul]

"The best strategy for the bogeyman is to play conservative mistake free golf. This grinding will put extended pressure on the scratch player."

Bill:

You know that and I know that but for some reason that type of suggestion DavidM seems to take as an insult to his intelligence! I started this thread because I'm trying to figure out why that is.

[ForkaB]

TEP, et. al.

I assumed the question related to matches played without any strokes given or taken.  With handicaps the question is trivial and basically irrelevant.  If Vijay gives me 15 shots (+9 vs. 6) and I shoot 80 to his 66, did I "beat" him?  Not in my book.

[Tom_Doak]

My strategy would be to compliment the other player all day with how long he hits the ball [if that's one of his strengths] and encourage him to keep hitting the driver, in the hope that it will eventually get him into trouble.

And keep making pars myself.

I had a friend years ago, a good player who had an excellent short game.  She was particularly tough in match play.  Her opponents would outplay her from tee to green for the first several holes, and yet be all square or even one down because she was pulling off "unfair" recoveries; and then it would start to eat at her opponents and they'd start making bogeys and she would win easily.

[TEPaul]

“TEP, et. al.
I assumed the question related to matches played without any strokes given or taken.  With handicaps the question is trivial and basically irrelevant.”

Rich:

Yes, absolutely. I guess if you asked that question you must be a bit like Tom MacWood and not very good at reading!  This is what I said in my initial post about that.

So, I think a discussion of "how do you beat a golfer who's better than you?" should be interesting. What do I mean by better? I guess I'd have to say a golfer who has more potential than you do---eg a better ball striker, longer, lower handicap, whatever etc. So as not to stilt this discussion it's probably better to compare apples to apples and in that context I mean playing against players who are probably better than you are on the flat.

By the way, that story about playing against the mini tour player and you finally admitting to him you were talking about the tennis mini-tour and then getting waffled is hilarious and probably pretty damn apropos in the context of this kind of subject.

[Craig Sweet]

We have a guy in our Wednesday night league that wants EVERY ball on the green marked, regardless of location.

The first time I played with him he asked me to mark my ball even though it was 15 feet to the right of his line, and only about a foot closer to the hole than his ball. I did this for two holes and then began to ignore him, so he had to continually ask me to mark my ball. It really pizzed him off that I didn't "learn" and make the mark automatically.

Before long his anger carried over to the match and he was toast.

[TEPaul]

TomD said:

"I had a friend years ago, a good player who had an excellent short game.  She was particularly tough in match play.  Her opponents would outplay her from tee to green for the first several holes, and yet be all square or even one down because she was pulling off "unfair" recoveries; and then it would start to eat at her opponents and they'd start making bogeys and she would win easily."  
 
TomD:

That was going to be one of my next points in how to beat someone better than you. How that lady played sounds like the story of my competitive career. I was so short off the tee compared to those I played against at first I had to really fight that fact being a confidence sapper and finally I just learned to live with it, accept it and not think about it. But I did get really good compared to those I played against around the green and green-end and I had all the confidence in the world in that area. How that paid off over time was just like that lady. I was very good at just making pars and grinding away for them if I had to (otherwise I guess I never  could've been a scratchman ) and into the round I couldn't help notice what that generally did not my opponents. It seemed like most of them would start to get frustrated probably thinking---why can't I swat this annoying little gnat?---and that's when they'd invariable begin to get out of their own games and start to press. That's the point when my own confidence would increase and I felt all I had to do is continue doing what I had been doing and from there just wait them out and watch them make mistakes they probably wouldn't ordinarily have made.

But in the context of the point of this other subject about how to play your best strategic golf, not only was I short off the tee compared to those I played against I also developed one of the most conservative overall ways of playing strategically you can imagine for a scratch player! I was so conservative I basically never tried to hit par 5s in two and during the best of my competitive years I not only basically forgot how to use a 3 wood off the fairway I never even carried one---just the driver, a putter and the rest were irons! If you're short off the tee that's a "bag" designed for ultra conservative strategic play if I've ever heard of one!
 

[Bob_Huntley]

Both of us playing off scratch and I'm in double digits, there should be no way that I can beat the better player. To think so is blowing smoke. Playing with the likes of Wigler, Mahaffey, Fortson, Gracely and them blowing the ball past me by close to a hundred yards is quite daunting. With a couple of strokes, a decent putting stroke and by guile and cunning, I am able to hold up, but beating them without help is well nigh impossible.

   

[JESII]

Regardless of the style of play (match or medal) it is very unlikely that a player with a handicap more than about five strokes higher than his opponent will beat that opponent on more than extremely rare occassions.

Within that five stroke range however, the best way to beat a lower handicap opponent is to play your own game. Attempting shots that you rarely pull off to try and gain a perceived advantage (because you think you need to) is exactly what the 'favorite' wants. If you patiently go about your business and force them to hit their shots successfully there is a good chance they will miss some and then they will start feeling the pressure.

It is not as easy as it sounds for a scratch player to shoot even par, so the sooner they recognize they might have to come close to that the sooner they feel pressure and the higher the chances of them missing enough shots to open the door for you.

Jim

[TEPaul]

Hey, Bob, even if you are double digits against their scratch get off that "poor me" jag about playing those guys on the flat! Haven't you tried congratulating any of them on the first tee yet for what great lovers their wives are?

[Bob_Huntley]

Hey, Bob, even if you are double digits against their scratch get off that "poor me" jag about playing those guys on the flat! Haven't you tried congratulating any of them on the first tee yet for what great lovers their wives are?

TEP,

That is by far the best ploy I've ever heard and a new one at that.

Bob.

[Bob_Huntley]

TEP,

There is one book that all members of this Forum should read, it's title is, 'The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship:
Potter, Stephen. Available at Alebooks.com for $2.85. It's a riot, written in a rather prissy English style. The Firth-Montmorency ploy is a classic.


At no time does he use the term, "Pity."