Bogey Golfers Got No Reason To Think . . .

[THuckaby2]

OK, fine, Tom, yes, I almost did it this year when I was playing pretty damn good in June and July.  But just when I had downloaded the stupid PDF entry form, it all went in the tank.  I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever hear "next up on the tee" and my name in the same sentence ever again....

Well, we'll see.  Never say never.  And once you do it again one time, no matter how it turns out, ye shall be hooked again... of course being older and oh so much wiser, you will keep it in context and it will remain a very infrequent thing... but I am betting you do come back to it, sooner or later, and like it.  Hell you'll be eligible for Masters level (age 40+ out here) pretty darn soon, no?

[THuckaby2]

Dave, there's an easy answer to that:  adjust expectations.  Go into the events knowing you suck, relatively, and be content with top 20, 40, whatever seems right.  Then when you exceed that, THAT is the victory.

Seems weak, I know.  But it does turn out to be a net positive.  Because the gut-churning feeling itself becomes the reward also.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Tom, if you must know, in 1995, for whatever reason, I got invited to play in the Butler Invitational at Butler.  Even though I had vowed to my wife to quit cold-turkey, she never believed me anyway   and let me play.  I practiced for a couple of weeks.  I shot 94 I think on the first day.  OK, maybe it was 92 or whatever but it started with a 9 and that was enough for me to know that it was over.  10 years earlier, I couldn't have done that if I tried with 22 beers in me and rental clubs.  At that point, I said "screw it, I'm done".  

Understood.
But see my last post regarding adjusting expectations.  Perhaps one starts on the lower key local level, also?

I know this is different for you then me, because you have actually had far more calligraphical success than I ever have - so it's a lot easier for me to have lower expectations and just enjoy the battle and the process.  But I swear to you man, I too gave it up, for a long time... and when I came back, I was glad I did - always keeping it in context and with realistic expectations, mind you.

TH

[THuckaby2]

OK, OK  - so I overestimate your past success - better than the other way around!  

And I'm not talking about Western Am, I'm talking about trying to qualify for the Evansville Over 40 gross spring stroke play, or something MUCH more down to earth.  For me, the calligraphy happens in qualifiers for NCGA events, and some years State Am.  I have no delusions of making the big event... but the gut churn of trying, and dreams of success, make these worthwhile.

In any case, your true background and this type of event ought to make it easier for you to go ahead and play a normal local calligraphy event, and just enjoy it for competition's sake and the test it provides. If you shoot 94, you laugh and realize you rarely practice and really don't deserve better.  If you shoot 69, you laugh at all the guys spending so much time praciticing.  Either way, you get the gut churn, which remains pretty cool.. because you do still care about the score, and the laugh with the 69 is much sweeter than the laugh with the 94.  But context remains.

TH

[THuckaby2]

I believe you have a competitive 3under in you.  

As for local events, well... perhaps I took it too far.  But doesn't Illinois have association championships, and the like?  NCGA has stroke play, match play, four-ball gross, four-ball net, then on top of that we have State Amateur, all of which are definitely calligraphy events and have very serious qualifiers... Don't you have things like that which could serve the purpose here?

We also have Masters Division (over 40) individual and fourball... that's more what I was referring too... more chance of success there... though not much, at least for me... but at least the dreaming in those has a basis in reality.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Well this is where you need to change then, and I believe you will.  No scotch game can match the calligraphy... you yourself just said elsewhere it's only green paper... what makes it so worthwhile in this context and worthless in the other?  Playing for money and playing for calligraphical pride are two different things and you know it.  The satisfaction of fleecing Greg cannot match success in calligraphy and you know that also.  Sooner or later you're gonna want to test it again...

So I'm patient - you will come around.  You will give it a try again, and either you'll ratchet down the expectations, in concert with the realities of your life, and enjoy the process, or you'll force yourself to truly practice and give it a real competitive go.  Either way, you're gonna want the test again.  I know it.  

Then you'll be hooked again.

You'll see....

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Lou, that's why you're in the "scorecard & pencil grinder" set and I'm in the "I don't give a shit" set.  You keep a handicap and track it.  You actually practice.  You try to shoot the best medal play number every time you play.  You want to get better.  You probably take lessons.  I don't do any of these things anymore, although I once did.  I gave up.  I stink.  I know it.  Trying to keep up with guys my entire golfing life starting in junior golf all the way up that were simply better than me has taken its toll.  It's no delusion.  It's very much reality.  I don't give a shit what I shoot for a medal play score because I came to the realization after a 3 year hiatus from the game that I had already shot my best round of golf and that's all there is to it.  The notion of "forgiving yourself in advance for the negative outcome" presumes the issue.  It's only a negative outcome if you are gunning for a number-driven goal that you have in mind and it only requires forgiveness if there is a failure to achieve that goal.  The question is: what's the goal?  Well, for me, the goal has changed.  It used to be a number.  But you know what?  I came to realize that being good enough at golf to have a realistic chance to achieve the number simply isn't any fun!  If you're playing for par, and you screw up even just a little, you've failed.  That's no fun.  I came to the realization (and you've heard me say it many times) that it's more fun to suck at this game than it is to be good!  I've come 180 degrees and have come to enjoy my laughably aweful shots even more than my very good ones.  Sure, I enjoy my good rounds, but I've come to REALLY enjoy the lousy ones -- where the pure perplexity of having no eartly idea where the golf ball is going is so damn interesting and surprising, that you have no choice but to laugh and marvel at the popcorn garbage spewing from your clubface!

      And whether it's me or anybody else, it's futile to try to get to a level that you'll be satisfied with because there is not a golfer in the world at this very moment that is as good as he wants to be.  10's want to be 5's, 5's want to be 2's, 2's want to be scratch, scrath's want to be as good as good club pros, club pros want to be as good as mini-tour bums, mini-tour guys want to be as good as Nike Tour guys, and those guys all want to be as good as exempt tour players and the exempt tour players all want to be as good as Eldrick and at the end of all this, even Eldrick is constantly dissatisfied with his game!

All in the pursuit of a goal that will never be fullfilled.  Here's a better plan -- play for yuks, don't keep medal score, gamble, win, buy your buddies beer and smile a lot.  And on those rare days when you find yourself in the middle of the back nine right around your gagging point, whether it's 2 under or 2 over or 6 over through 14 and you start thinking about breaking 70 or par or 80 or whatever, revel in the challenge THEN of shooting a number.  Otherwise, ignore it because it will drive you mad!

Love it!

-Ted

[THuckaby2]

Keep telling yourself that.  If that's true, then I suppose you just laugh when you lose?  Why not just give it away on the first tee, and have him give some of his out of his wallet - then you're both happy!  

In any case, this isn't a big deal - remember I said one should keep it in context in any case.  But if one wants to experience the real pinnacle of the thrills of victory and agonies of defeat that golf has to offer, well... you know where that occurs.  And the lure is powerful.  Geez, Goodale insults your driving ability and you come at him with full barrels... seems to me some golf ego does exist there, my friend... that will need to be satisfied at some point, as much as you say you suck, etc.  You will want the test.

And the test is a hell of a lot of fun, even in failure.  That's the perspective you will have gained as you've aged.  Perhaps you can't see that now, but you will.

You will come back around.  You know deep down how a golfer is measured, and as much as Lynn Shackelford might love it, it ain't by height.  It's also not by money winnings.  Not on our level, anyway.  Hell not even on tour really.

TH

[THuckaby2]

OK Dave, don't go nuts on me.  I'm not saying that the ONLY way a golfer is measured is by success in calligraphy events - remember how I keep saying it has to be kept in context?  Hell the best golfer I know is Bob Huntley.  That ought to say it all.

You're preaching to the choir here re a golfer being measured by how much fun he has, and pleasurable he makes things for himself and playing partners.  Hell, my proudest moment on a golf course occurred when my Dad's best buddy said I was the most fun guy to play with he had ever met....This during a round where I was playing like absolute dogshit, relatively... that trumps calligraphical success for sure in the grand scheme of things.

So no need to tell me how much fun golf can, and should be, outside of competition.  I am the poster boy for it.

All I am saying is that the best and truest test of one's golf skill only exists in calligraphy events.  You have admitted this, you know it.

And it's kinda fun to put one's skills to the ultimate test, that's all.  Again, it's healthy to keep it in context, but it is fun.

And you know this as well.

But, again, your history differs from mine.  I did my 12-step calligraphy program long ago, coming down from a lesser height than you.  I too swore off competitive golf forever, for EXACTLY the reasons you state, and with EXACTLY the same reasoning.  I was the most fun, most anti-competitive golfer on this planet.  The vast majority of the time, I still am, and happily so.

BUT... it just remains fun to have the gut churn again, and test ones self.  In time, you shall see, young grasshopper.  As I say, I am patient.

 

TH

ps - you do realize Moriarty is gonna roast and toast us for hijacking his thread???  

[THuckaby2]

Fine, **** it.  I'll play in something this year.  I hope you're happy.  Pandora will come out to play.  

Does anybody know the dates for the Cook County Mid-Amateur Scotch Game Championship?  

Awesome. Love it.   Of course that's stretching the limits of the definition of "calligraphy", but we have to start again somewhere and man when you find those dates let me know and I'll come out and partner with ya.  Talk about limiting our delusions of grandeur...  

[Lou_Duran]

shivas,

The self deception continues.  I remember a certain match on a rainy day when you and your partner were getting trounced out of the box.  Yes, you were yuking it up and slapping a few beers (in the cold morning nonetheless) down, but I didn't sense that you were having a lot of fun.  That is until the two of you started to hit a few shots, won some holes, and began "caring".  The old competitiveness came out and I would suggest to you that at that point you really enjoyed the game.  Alas, it was only short-lived.

Keeping score, whether medal or match, is just a more objective way of gauging the progress one is making in the game.  We are wired to quantify, some of us more than others.  Personally, the overall score is not nearly as satisfactory to me as the way I achieved it.  Regardless of the score, if I finish badly, say over the last four holes or so, my enjoyment of the round is less than if I started poorly and finished well to achieve the same score.

Now that I am having increasing difficulty breaking 80 on a regular basis, I do wish that I could adopt a "don't give a flip" attitude about the game.  However, if I did, within a short period of time I would probably have trouble breaking 90.  Then I would want to play the up tees and pretty soon I would lose another 20 yards on my drives, and still shoot the same high scores.

To each his own, but I much more admire the approach taken by Bob Huntley.  At his age he is still searching for a better move and an extra 10 yards.  He takes lessons and plays competitively.  Ditto for my friend Cary Schulten at Dallas National who won the club championship at Dallas National a couple of years ago in the open and senior levels.  He is 70 and playing some of the best golf in his life.  I think that the trick is to enjoy the game while continuing to make progress, knowing that much of the time we will be disappointed.    

[George Pazin]

As one who has had the pleasure of playing with Lou, I would hardly say he's fixated on a medal score.

I'd also guess that those of us who claim to not care actually care a lot more than we care to admit, even to ourselves.

[George Pazin]

Forget medal score, how do you feel about stroke play?

 

[Steve Lang]

 

Folks Hounding Shivas,..  

so you're saying that you regularly need to take the SAT's to continue to test your intellectual capacity properly? capacity that you know exists in a much different experiential state today , .. with larger holistic knowledge, than in the past?

{Address Modified to clearly mean that I agree with Shivas' plight, but he was too wound up to really notice, 1000%}

[ed_getka]

In the rounds we've played together I don't even remember Dave keeping score, or even having a scorecard. Except of course at NGLA where he had to eat part of it.
   When we did a 9 hole scramble at SH and David carried the team I saw some of what he is capable of. That doesn't mean that he wants to go out and try tournament golf again. I think there comes a point when you just don't want to dig down anymore. That doesn't mean you don't try your best, you are just less concerned with the outcome.
   I used to run competitively and eventually I got to a point where I was coming back off an injury and knew how much effort it takes to go to the well mentally to get back to where I had been, and thats when I lost interest. I don't know if Dave feels the same about competitive golf, but it sort of sounds like it. I think most people only have a certain amount of mental energy to apply to their chosen sport that allows them to play at their highest level. And once you've gone to the proverbial well one to many times, thats it.
   
   As for the original thread, I think some guys here confuse shooting the best score with trying to play golf the way the course dictates. I think I know enough about this game to understand the strategy in front of me at least some of the time, and thats how I try to play the course. The strategy of playing what the course dictates and the strategy of shooting the lowest score are not the same for a high handicapper (like me).
   

[Lou_Duran]

Ed,

Would you care to expand on the following.  "The strategy of playing what the course dictates and the strategy of shooting the lowest score are not the same for a high handicapper (like me)."

The more I see the way strategy is used in gca.com, the more confused I get.  I would think that if one chooses the optimal strategy, holding everything else equal, it would lead to shooting the lowest possible score.

The strategic options presented by a hole vary considerably on a day-to-day basis depending on a variety of factors including course conditions, weather, and course set-up.  Further, these options are different for each player depending on his ability, strength, accuracy, and style of play.

In my opinion, the pros and the national amateurs are the only ones who have the skill set to take full advantage of strategic options offered by a course.  It is ironic that most of these guys choose to play a one-dimensional aerial game because, unless it is extremely windy, they believe that they have superior control of the ball when it is not making much contact with the ground.  

If setting up relatively square to the target and swinging within yourself constitues strategic thinking, than the bogey man should also be a thinking man.  However, if he is thinking about aligning his feet to the right, moving the ball back in his stance, and pronating his wrists while keeping the clubhead close to the ground for a few inches past impact in order to sling a punch hook just short of the green and have the ball channel to a back pin position, well, he is toast 99% of the time.  Working on his short game would be much more strategic and likely to achieve results.  If nothing else, clearing all of the Golf Digest nonsense from his mind will likely speed up his round and relieve his headaches.

[Doug Siebert]

Shivas,

Going back to the actual thread for a minute, I have to take issue with one of your points about why bogey golfers have to play smart.  While it is true that they don't have the "offense" to make birdies, they don't NEED no f'ing birdies!  They just need pars, and there are 100x more ways to make a par than there are to make a birdie on any given hole.  And unlike you and me, who can have a bad day where exactly zero birdies are racked up, it is almost impossible for a bogey golfer to go parless over 18 holes.

The thing that kills them is Ben Wright's "dreaded others".  If they can turn one blowup per nine into a smart bogey, it'll turn a 92 into an 88.  They can't eliminate all blowups (I should know, because I'm a hell of a lot better than a bogey golfer and it is a rare day I don't have at least one double somewhere on my card)  But the proper strategy for a bogey golfer interested in lower scores is simply to play the odds and avoid shots that leave open the possibility of getting into a sticky situation where they can get into a worse situation, or if they get into the sticky situation to take their medicine and be damn sure that whatever play they try they are as near as possible guaranteed of having an easier shot for the next one.

[DMoriarty]

The more I see the way strategy is used in gca.com, the more confused I get.  I would think that if one chooses the optimal strategy, holding everything else equal, it would lead to shooting the lowest possible score.

I don't get it.   In match play the score is irrelevant, and one might well be in a position where one must consider a dangerous one in ten shot just to have the possibility of squaring the hole.   That will not result in the lowest possible score 90% of the time, but it makes more sense than playing safe shot for a bogey when your opponent has a sure par.  

Also, even in stroke play the "optimal strategy" may well produce something higher than the lowest possible score.  Strategy is about weighing relative risks and potental rewards of different options, and by definition where there are risks  (as there always is in some form or another) there is always a possibility that things will not turn out ideally, either because of poor execution or by rub of the green.  

Think of CPC 16 . . . you may well have played the optimal strategy, but in hindsight you probably would have scored better had you chosen the other route.  Strategy only guarantees in a sure score when one plays their round in hindsight.  

[Dr Katz]

Mr Shivas, David Schmidt-
I am here always watching. If you need me you can find me easily. Many on here can make the appointment for you to seek my help. In the mean times you take big breathes and many little sips of wawa. If you need nepenthe or whatever I can help of course. I am here. I am always here watching

[THuckaby2]

Re the playing of tournament issue, again:

it's not that shivas NEEDS to do this, nor does anyone.  The SAT is not required to be taken again.  It's just that competitive play can add to the golfing fun for certain golfers, and is quite satisfying, in many ways.  He knows this.  He's fighting against it, and the difference for him is that playing a LOT of competitive golf in the past did drive him crazy and make golf more work than fun at times, as it does to many of us who go this route (and certainly did to me).  So a little of it goes a long way, and this is the perspective gained with age I keep referring to.

The man plays money games all the time.  As much as he tries to say otherwise, he does have a golf ego and is competitive to a certain degree.  He has ADMIRABLY kept this in check and I too can attest that he is an absolute blast to play with, whatever the format - bet or no bet, grinding or just screwing around.

So for 95% of his golf, that is most definitely the way he should go. The man has fun, the game is fun for him, and he is damn fun to be around.  That's as great a compliment as I can give about a fellow golfer. And for most people, that would be enough.

But for one who has competitive play in his blood, well... it never really goes away and trying to keep it down is really not worth the effort.

My man shivas will work this through, and it won't be by never playing tournaments again.  Eventually, he will enter one, just as a what the hell thing.  And he'll likely do pretty shitty.  But he'll think about it more, and he'll enter another.  The danger for him as a former competitive golf addict will be if he goes off the deep end the other way... But I have faith that he's been through that already, he knows the end there, and he also knows that the realities of his life don't allow him to be truly competitive anymore anyway.  So this "lark" of golf will be translated to a somewhat larkish feeling in tournaments.  He'll play, get the gut churn, care a lot about doing well and try his best... but the difference will be that the wisdom of years will show him that it really doesn't matter in the end what the calligraphy shows... but that the process, and getting the gut churn, is what it's about - for him, and guys like him.

So he'll then be able to take it and leave it, playing 95% of his golf as the shivas we know, but giving it the old test again 5% of the time.

That's what I'm getting at.  It WILL happen.  Oh, maybe not this year, maybe not next.  But the day will come.

And please remember this is not an absolute, and is not right for all golfers.  Hell I'd advise most people NOT to do competitive play, because it does become a chore after awhile... But the fact does remain that it also does allow for the greatest thrills of victory and agonies of defeat this game has to offer... so adding it to one's golfing agenda, without becoming a slave to it, well that's a good thing.

That's the Huckaby Golf Manifesto, anyway.

 

[Mike Hendren]

When we did a 9 hole scramble at SH and David carried the team I saw some of what he is capable of.    

You meant the "Dream Team" (Shivas, Paul Turner, you and yours truly).  As I recall, we opened up a can.

Or was it just a dream?

Mike

[JESII]

Shivas

Your last post identified me perfectly. I cannot imagine going to the first tee and not trying to shoot the best score I can. This does not however get in the way of the multiple matches I will have going and when it comes down to it and I have a decision to make that might benefit my matches, but risk killing my medal score I always choose the match play option.

My conern for you is the balance required, that I feel is necessary to enjoy golf, between pure enjoyment and personal achievement. Personal achievement does not have to mean tournament success, but it might mean learning a new shot or simply lowering your handicap. I feel to really enjoy the game for the rest of their lives, people need to have goals they are trying to attain, regardless of how inconsequetial those goals really are.

Don't take this post wrong, I don't think it mandatory for you to ever play tournament golf again for the simple reason that I would not want to play tournaments if I were not prepared to at least do OK and that is driven by expectations that are very hard to change.

By the way did you get the help you requested from Dr K?

Sully

[THuckaby2]

Dave, I'm not wrong at all.

Please, courtesy?  That's a cop out and you know it.  Yes, it is a pain for the good players to play with THAT GUY, but it's a reality of golf and they deal with it.  They are far too into their own games to care that much about any shitty golfer.

I understand your fears.  The WORST thing in competitive golf is being THAT GUY - and it's sure as hell NOT because you're being discourteous to the field.  It's because you are thinking that the rest of the guys are looking at you like you're a fake - like you don't really belong.  That's reality.  BUT... that is what gets the gut churning, especially for those of us for whom chances of actually winning are just delusions of grandeur.

I know that feeling of being THAT GUY.  It's not good.

And I know you don't want that, most of all.

But fear of that is NOT a good reason not to play.  Hell, conquering that is actually the best reason TO DO IT AT THIS POINT!!!!

Because that's where the gut churn comes from right now.  And getting past the gut churn, well... that's pretty darn cool.

And more matter what you say, you just don't get that with our type of screw-around golf or fleecing your friends for money.  You just don't.

And you know what also?  Being THAT GUY is not the end of the world.  I've been there, too many times.  I've also been on the other end too... so each time it's happened where I played like THAT GUY, on the ride home, I reminded myself that I have a great wife and great kids and a lot of friends and a damn good job and well, that was just a number... and that the rest of the guys are gonna forget me the second they leave the 18th green, spending time recounting their own scores and their own games.  No one truly does give a damn what other people shoot, except in context to themselves competitively.  So I blow that off and then think that dammit if I actually practiced instead of working and coaching kids I could compete in this game.  That last part was the rationalization that we all need.  But the rest is truth.

You'll do it, Dave.  You need to.  And even if you end up as THAT GUY, the process remains worthwhile.  Keep trying and the time will come again when you're not THAT GUY, and that will be damn cool.

Of course once again keeping it perspective, and remaining the damn fun golfer 95% of the time.

TH

[THuckaby2]

JES:

You've hit on a very key element to this and that is EXPECTATIONS.  I tried to explain that to Dave earlier, that he's just plain gonna have to ratchet those down.  To me it's not that hard, as I can rationalize it due to the realities of life.  I do believe Dave could do the same, and the end of playing a small amount of tournament golf just to get the gut churn and some satisfaction and goal achieving is worth the means of how tough it will be for him to do this ratcheting down of expectations.

That's our fundamental disagreement, I think:  he doesn't want to ratchet down, and can't see the the good will outweigh the bad.

My confidence is that over time he will come around, because he needs the goal setting and gut churn because it is so damn fun.

And I don't see how it's gonna come outside of tournament play, not for one who's been down this road already anyway...

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm no Dr. Katz, but Dave's condition is so beatable. All it takes is time, and many rounds of medicine.

DS- You don't want to be "that guy"? That's all ego my man. Let it go. Play like sheit for two holes, then pull yourself together man. If you fail to execise your demons...so you have a bad day. That's all it was. Quitting, or no longer competeing, is not the way to become more familiar with the concept(mentality) of "it's just another round of golf". The closer you can feel like that, during a too-na-ment, the less likely you'll be "that guy". Afterall somebody has to be that guy. Play in as many tuna mentals as you can until it becomes rote. And when you are that guy again, someday, LAUGH it off. Do Not withdraw.