Enthusiasm vs. salesmanship

[AWTillinghast]

Pretty humorous that Tom Doak of all people started this thread.  Isn't he the one architect that has used this website to promote himself and his work more than any other architect?  In fact, he pretty much acknowledges his "status" on this website when he writes:  "And don't base your response on how you'd feel if it was me; try to set a standard that you'd hold for Donald Trump, too."
 
 Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle black!!  Geez!!    

[Jeff_Brauer]

As for the promotional genius of CBMac, who exactly did he have to outsell as the first American golf designer? Sheeh, he had it easy compared to today!

As Ian says, all gca types promote.  And the best promoters have generally been the most successful architects, either by selling the most jobs, or selling themselves to get the plum jobs.

While AIA had a general reservation about advertising and self laudatory promotion, certain less upfront techniques have always been acceptable, even to the stuffiest practitioner.  For the most part, those limitations were common sense, in that taking a golf writer to see your courses, and hoping he promotes it as an independent source lends far more credibility than the gca saying its greater than toast.

I have never felt Tom Doak crosses any invisible line of self promotion here.  Many here are interested in what he does, and he is sincerely answering questons put to him.  Hey, sometimes being genuine and helpful is the best promotion tool of all, but there's nothing you can find fault with in that.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tom,
It appears to me your stretching the point quite a bit here (and for what purpose?).  
 
Tim Liddy's post attempted to take the thread in question off topic by questioning the role of writers and others in the marketing process. Which of course is quite funny considering what his (err, Pete Dye's) Wintonbury Hills project has received thanks in part to Dr. Klein's involvement.
 
Regarding the membership sales issue, someone asked what it cost and I posted a reply to that. Was that self promotion and sales? Did that cross a line into sales that you found so unbearable that it required this thread to delve into this all important subject? If someone asked what the green fee would be at one of your courses or how to get there or what how long it takes to fly to Tasmania, and you replied, somehow I don't think you'd feel that's crossing a line. I certainly would not feel that way.
 
Geoff

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I once told my father that I never wanted to be a salesman.  He responded by telling me that EVERYONE was selling something.  Whether it be a new widget, an idea or the services of an architect, each of us is making an attempt to sway opinion and to receive something in return.  

As a reader or consumer, I find it my responsibility to separate the valuable pieces from the crap.  

By the way one of the best sales techniques known is simply enthusiasm, so I would suggest that this thread title may be redundant.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Now that Tom Doak has become so popular and is being forced into the mainstream I'd like to ask: Who assumes the mantle of "Maverick"?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Here's another interesting thread at GCA.com that threatens to become absurd...

Frankly, I find it extremely satisfying when I hear a golf architect express genuine interest, admiration, and respect for the work of a contemporary.

Rod Whitman and I interviewed for the Prairie Club job, along with Gil and Geoff. Obviously, we didn't get it. But when I heard they did, I immediately sent Geoff a note and talked to Gil on the 'phone to congratulate them.

Hey, I wish we would have landed that gig. We could have done an excellent job with that site. But so will Gil, Geoff, and Jim Wagner. I'm not afraid to admit that. Nor to congratulate them on landing the job, and wish them well.

I'd expect the same from Gil and Geoff if Rod and I were to out bid them for a job.  

[Tom_Doak]

Geoff:

If you noticed, I started a separate thread here to wonder at what point salesmanship of projects-to-be should not be permitted on this site.  I made it separate precisely so it wouldn't be about your job or my job or anyone's.  And I didn't say you had crossed any lines.

I'm surprised by the response so far; other than Mr. Tillinghast (?) who is sarcastically making the point that he thinks I cross the line, everyone has pretty much said they want to hear all about these projects from the architect or developer, no matter what stage they are at.

Best wishes to you and Gil in Nebraska; are you starting in the spring?

[AWTillinghast]

Mr. Doak, I was not suggesting that you cross the line, so let me make my thoughts perfectly clear.

I have no problem with you promoting your work on this website or anywhere else for that matter.  I also don’t care when you decide to promote a project.  People can read your opinions, and those of others, and take them for whatever they are worth.  If Ran Morrissett thinks somebody has crossed a line, he can delete their post(s).
 
I just found it humorous that you, of all people, were asking for a standard for when it's appropriate to start talking about a project, particularly when your query was prompted by a post by somebody (Tony Chapman) unrelated to a project that you interviewed for, linking to that project's website.  You made your feelings perfectly clear when you said:  “What I don't like to see, and what I hate when a client expects it of me, is the promotion of a project which is trying to sell memberships so that funds will be available to build it.”  If you truly feel that way, then you can refrain from speaking, but who are you to question other people’s actions?

Seems like it wasn't too long ago that Greg Ramsey was using gca.com to raise interest in and money to start construction of Barnbougle Dunes, where you were the architect of record.  I sure don't recall you starting a thread like this one at that time!

Was Tony Chapman at fault for something?  Was Geoff Shackelford not entitled to respond once the subject had been raised?  In fact, would Mr. Shackelford have been wrong to bring up the subject in the first place?  This is a golf architecture website and it sure seems that most participants want to hear about projects whenever somebody involved is willing to talk about them.  Anybody with an interest in golf course architecture that takes the time to look at what was posted on the Prairie Club website will, I think, be fascinated by what they read and see pre-construction regardless of whether the project is financed or not!

[Mike_Young]

Myself, I call salesmanship the process of getting the project signed.  I don't think many talk about their work until they know it is a signed deal that cannot be stolen.
After you have the deal then any promotion efforts either fall into PR or advertising.  Anything on this site is strictly PR.  It can be in the form of promoting the architect or the project.  And it can be dangerous....some clients may not want it...
But I don't see anything wrong with it if anyone wishes to participate in that manner....

[TEPaul]

What am I missing here?

I see all this stuff from an A.W. TIllinghast (who's that?), from my old friend Geoffshac and from others I just don't get. I don't understand it.

Tom Doak seems to have asked a perfectly reasonable question here---eg should those in the busisness show enthusiasm on here and what should be some standard on here about self promotion? To me that's a reasonable question, I guess! I read answers like he's the pot calling the kettle black because he posts on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and says something like 'don't make a distinction between myself and Donald Trump?' What's the problem with that? Is Doak saying he knows he and his name is special on here but overlook that? I don't think so. I think he's asking a legitimate question that obviously he cares about, (although I sure don't). I wish Doak or anyone else in the business would just say whatever they feel like saying on here.

What the hell is the matter with you people? Doak's probably the most valuable contributor to this site, and has been for years, simply because he is in the business which all of us have seen really take off, and probably for all the right reasons this webesite supports and was organized for --thank God--- and if most of you can't figure out why that is I feel sorry for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. We need contributors like Tom Doak on here. To me he's certainly more that just one amongst equals of the contributors to this website!! And if there's anyone on here who can't figure out why that is I say God Help this website!

Tom Doak, do all of us and yourself too a favor and just keep on posting on here about anything and everything you feel like! I can pretty much guarantee you it won't be inappropriate---at least not in my opinion!

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  Why are you "suprised by the response so far"?

[TEPaul]

ed;

There's a lot of Toms on here. Who are you asking?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I read Tom's original post as where would the treehouse want him to draw the line, not that someone else has crossed one.

Unobjectively speaking of course.

Cheers

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Doak:

On many occasions I've expressed that Golfclubatlas is best served by a balance of industry folks and people for whom golf architecture is nothing more than their hobby or passion.

Industry folks inevitably face restrictions on what information they can share, but clearly they have a perspective and knowledge us lay people appreciate. For our part, lay people are usually more free to express our candid opinions - something I hope GCA never loses. At the end of the day, the more interaction between these two types of contributors, the better.

Like Tom Paul, I hope many of your industry colleagues will feel free to share whatever information they can about their projects.

Selling memberships? No, that has no place here. But, sharing what makes a project interesting and exciting? By all means, do it!

[Jason Topp]

In my view, this question goes to a fundamental issue that underlies many uses of the web.  The web loses much of its value to me when it becomes like other media outlets and merely an advertising vehicle rather than a useful information source.

I think the concern is legitimate.  For examply, originally, I thought Golf Digest's Places to Play was a good source for the general public's perceptions of courses.  While I disagreed with many of the ratings, I thought there was a general integrity to them.  I think the guide has become largely useless over time and the ratings have all become artificially inflated.  I've always assumed (without knowing) that the change was due to ballot stuffing efforts.

Based on what I have seen, this site is nowhere near the point where it raises a concern about whether it has become an advertising vehicle.  It is clear that there is some promotion taking place, but as long as it is combined with useful information and there is opportunity for others to disagree and for others to respectfully point out promotion when it undermines the usefulness of information, I would rather err on the side of more information rather than less.

 

[George Pazin]

To be honest, I couldn't care less if something said on here looks and smells like salesmanship and self promotion. Basically all I want is to know things. It seems to me like accusations of self promotion or salesmanship or implications on here of same come from those of our contributors on here who're in the business and hardly ever from those of us on here who aren't. So I don't care what's called enthusiasm or salesmaship, I'm glad to hear anything.

I'd rather get updates, biased or otherwise, than nothing at all. Those reading can decide for themselves if they need to filter any posts for separation between subjective and objective content.

This is a forum, not a senate committee

Many of the pics, comments and updates that have come from inside sources have been among the most enjoyed and treasured posts on here, for me anyway. And if the horse's mouth is subjective, it is still the horse's mouth and will know more about it than an objective one time visitor or web browser.

As to the question at hand, these concise and well thought out posts summarize my thoughts perfectly.

And I don't think Tom D was saying anything other than what Mike Nuzzo said - is there a line he or others shouldn't cross? I don't think was saying anyone else crossed that line and I don't think he was saying that there even necessarily should be a line. He shared his own opinion on the topic, but didn't say that everyone had to follow his own personal style or guidelines.

Greg Ramsay remains a personal hero of mine - kind of the anti-Donald, if you ask me. I'm glad he shared his dream early on and I hope others follow his lead. I personally would like to hear more about others dreams. Dick Daley sent me a photo of Nebraska land 3 or 4 years ago that is still in my wallpaper rotation.

I also hope that if I'm still posting on here in 5 years that Pat is still calling me naive - better that than jaded or cynical.

 

[TEPaul]

Good post George!

As it turns out and as a result of this thread there're a lot of things I'd like to hear from Tom Doak (and others in the business) on this very subject of "Enthusiasm vs salesmanship".

Tom Doak on here did mention himself as a comparison to Donald Trump. That thought right there frankly interests me. I look at Donald Trump (and have for years) as a true American curiosity. The Donald isn't the antiChrist to me in golf architecture or anything else he's ever done. I say that because I firmly believe (and have for years) that Trump probably understands the complete spectrum of feelings and reactions to his style and personality, his personal business style, even his incredible hair etc as well as anyone. Somewhere I've got to believe that Trump probably doesn't take that persona as seriously as most think he does. To him, at least at this point, he probably understands that outrageous persona alone has turned into a real asset, perhaps one of the most effective sales tools imaginable. Hence the instant popularity of this television show of his.

In that way Trump is probably the modern day P.T. Barnum except on a much grander scale. But the reason I mention this is obviously Doak feels a guy like Trump, and in what he's done and continues to do in golf architecture (and clubs) alone, is probably the best example of the most effective salesman and self promotion imaginable. I mention all this simply because in my opinion, despite what a salesman and self promoter Trump may be I have the distinct feeling that his basic product of incredible excess in clubs and their architecture is winding to an end. I feel that the age of real "anti-excess" in golf clubs and in golf architecture is probably upon us and that's very interesting to me because frankly that side of the type and style of golf architecture is where Tom Doak is and would like to continue to be. At least that's the impression I've always gotten from Tom Doak.

So I'd love to hear Tom Doak tell us all what he thinks the ideal level of enthusiasm or salesmanship should be these days on this website or anywhere else for that matter. And also what he thinks about the idea that perhaps the age of "Excess" in golf architecture and related issues really is winding down and the age of "anti-excess" just may be on the rise---perhaps even on a steep rise!

[George Pazin]

My own frustration with the Donald really probably lies more with the general public's perception of him than the actual man himself. It just annoys me that he overhypes everything and yet most seem to take him at his word. He almost seems to be living proof that the boy who cried wolf may have actually been on the right track! It's hard to take the guy seriously and I generally prefer people who are less obnoxious and less egocentric.

[Lou_Duran]

Would there be any harm done or impropriety committed if Tom Doak would post detailed information on the Harmony Club, even if his intent was solely to spark interest in the project and help the developer reach critical mass?  Personally, as long as the information is accurate and not boastful, I think that it would be a good thing.

[ed_getka]

Tom P,
  That question was for Tom D. I put in quotes since it was his question, I didn't think there would be any confusion. I am curious why TD is "suprised" by the response here, since it is what I expected to see.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Personally, I enjoy someone's enthusiasm for a project.  Is it salesmanship?  Who cares!?! I am old enough  and experienced enough to sort out the wheat from the chaff.  One of my favorite places to visit is the European Club and Pat and Gerry Ruddy.  Pat has been dealt a Royal Flush in the poker hand of enthusiasm and salesmanship.  I love walking the course with him.  Does he cross the line of good taste and discretion.  Probably, but it is all in fun and the club is his life's work and legacy.  So bring it on.  I would much rather read about someone's project they love than some of the childish arguments that periodically take up spce on this site.

[George Pazin]

I would much rather read about someone's project they love than some of the childish arguments that periodically take up spce on this site.

Only January 3 and we already have a contender for post of the year.

[henrye]

I think the standards on this site are very loose and so far it has worked well for the site.  Tom, I know you asked this question generally, but you have stated a particular example which you feel uncomfortable with and thought to use it as an example.  In that particular case, it seems to me, you need to discuss your concerns with the developer or group who hired you.  In future, if you feel strongly about keeping promotion out of your responsibility, you should be up front with your developer prior to accepting the project.  This may have negative repercussions, but at least you wont have the same dilemma.

[Michael Whitaker]

The following quote is posted on the website for Belfair in Hilton Head, SC... does it fall into the realm of enthusiasm or salesmanship:

"Belfair is the ultimate in golf. It’s Shadow Creek quality. I’d stake my reputation on the fact that Belfair is as good as any golf course you will ever see or play." Tom Fazio, course designer.

[paul cowley]

   If someone is writing a check that I'm cashing , I sell the hell out of it....enthusiastically.
 or I don't take a check if I'm not comfortable with the deal.
 or I stop accepting a check if I feel compromised.

....its really not that complicated.

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