Where does Stanley Thompson stand?

[Adam_F_Collins]

How important was Stanley Thompson to the history of GCA? Where does he stand in the all-around order of great architects?

How well-known is he outside his native Canada?

Does he have any notable designs outside of Canada?

Would the key Thompson layouts come down to Highlands, St.George's, Banff, Jasper, and Capilano?

What other layouts might make the list?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Hi Adam.

Stanley Thompson is a very important figure in the history of golf course architecture. Although... his influence outside of Canada is limited - unless you count his perceived influence on Robert Trent Jones, that is. I don't though. Because, although his early works (ie. 1930s, '40s) might have, I don't think RTJ's best-known courses really exemplify Thompson's design principles.

Jasper was a revolutionary design. Opened for play in 1925, it was arguably the first course west of the Mississippi River (aside from perhaps Fowler's LACC) to compare to the best courses in the east and abroad.

As you know, Thompson left a string of courses across Canada that compare favourably to the very best designs throughout the world. Namely, Capilano (early 1930s), Jasper (1925), Banff (1927), St. George's (1929), and Highlands Links (late 1930s). Plus a number of other "notables". Westmount and Cataraqui immediately come to mind.  

I don't think he was that well-known outside Canada. Although I've heard through the grapevine that a few of his courses in South America were pretty good originally.

I recently assisted Ken Donovan of Nova Scotia with a paper submitted to the Canadian government, nominating Stanley Thompson as a person of national historical significance. There's no news yet whether the government will recognize Thompson as such, but Ken's made an excellent case for the designation. We'll see what transpires.  

Where does Thompson stand in the order of great golf architects? That's a good question. I think if you put his "top-5" up against the "top-5" of most others, aside from perhaps Alister MacKenzie, they'd compare very favourably. That places him near the top of the order in my mind.

[Tom_Doak]

I honestly don't know where he stands.

I've seen three of those "top 5" -- Cape Breton, St. George's, and Capilano -- and they are all very, very good.  But four of his top five are on sites which have all-world scenery, and the fifth [St. G] is about the best piece of terrain I've ever seen for parkland golf.

What I haven't seen are enough Thompson courses to have any idea what he would do on a more modest piece of land.  No one ever talks about anything he did but the 5 or 6 best courses.

As for his influence on Robert Trent Jones, I'd guess he had as much influence on Jones as Pete Dye had on me ... we didn't copy their style, but we learned a lot of things which would help make us successful on our own.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Jeff,

What courses did he do in South America?  Indeed, what are South American courses in general like from the design point of view?  We never seem to hear about them on this side of the pond.

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: Your point about Thompson working on remarkable sites is interesting, largely because I think most of the top courses we discuss are on great sites.
That said, there are very few Thompson courses on less than stellar sites -- even the second tier (St. Thomas, Westmount, Cataraqui, etc.) were generally built on nice properties. Maybe that has more to do with the fact that Thompson was pretty much the only architect working in Canada and that he had a go at reworking a number of George Cumming's initial routings.
So how to evaluate Thompson? He has two courses in the Top 100 in the world, and some would argue that one of his two mountain courses (either Jasper or Banff) could have a spot in that space.
Influential? I'd have to say no -- none of the Canadian archiects working today (Cooke, Carrick, McBroom) take much from him. And the guys that worked for him (Moote, Cornish, Robinson) aren't really that talented and haven't created much of note. Probably Mr. Cornish has had the biggest influence of Thompson's proteges, but that is just as a historian, not as an architect.
But whether he's been influential or not -- Thompson's greatness has stood the test of time.

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom Doak:

I agree, S. Thompson's "top 5" occupy great sites, but as our own R. Thompson points out above, so do most of the golf courses we consider great.

S. Thompson's architecture at those sites is pretty remarkable. Better, I presume, then many other architects would have handled the same properties.

I would say, too, that your architecture exemplifies Pete Dye's principles, in terms of strategy, even though your courses look nothing like a typical Dye design. Wouldn't you?

Mark R.:

I don't know much about Thompson's work in South America. And I don't have my files handy. I'll take a look later, and list those designs. Perhaps someone lurking here might be familiar with one or two.

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

While I cannot comment on the quality of the courses designed by Stanley Thompson in South America, here is a list of them;

Constant Springs GC - Kingston, Jamaica - 1930
Manchester GC - Mandeville, Jamaica - 1930 (9 holes)
Gavea G & CC - Rio de Janeiro, Brazil - 1930
Medellin GC - Medellin, Columbia - 1930
Sao Paulo GC - Sao Paulo, Brazil - 1932
Teresopolis CC - Rio de Janeiro, Brazil - 1935
Itanhanga CC - Rio de Janeiro, Brazil - 1935 (36 holes)
San Andres GC - Bogota, Columbia - 1946

TK

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

When I said that I learned a lot of things from Pete Dye that would help me be successful on my own, I didn't just mean about construction and business.  Yes, I have taken a fair amount philosophically from Pete's style ... although a lot of what I took from Pete is stuff that MacKenzie would have agreed with, too.

PS  Who wants to go scout out Medellin GC for us?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have played the two Thompson designs in Rio, all be it without knowing.
The Gavea course has often staged the Brazilian Open, it is a well routed course as best I remember with some interesting elevation changes.
I remember the greens as being in excellent condition, and the overall experience as positive.
This was quite a few moons ago, before I had played amny courses at all.

[ian]

Stanley often picked the sites of the golf courses from extremely large land holdings. All of the top 5 including St. george's were parts of large tracts of land. St. George's and Capilano were part of a housing developments and  the other 3 were part of large tracts of land. There is a talent to selecting land too.

The three Robert mentioned were all smaller sites, with St. thomas actually being smaller than its current site.

I'm to biased to offer a fair opinion of where he stacks up.

[Robert Thompson]

According to the Federacion Columbia De Golf, a site I found in a google search, Medellin CC still exists -- in fact some kids from the club recently won some tournament there with "397 blows" (alright, this was a google translation....).
Couldn't find a Web site, but if Tom's paying, I'm willing to risk the trip to check this one out -- make a great Canadian golf story.

R

[Robert Thompson]

And apparently the Brazil courses, or at least two of them, are still well regarded.

Here's a list of top courses that appeared in Golf Digest:

BRAZIL (65)

1. San Fernando G.C., Sao Paulo

2. Sao Paulo G.C., Sao Paulo

3. Guarapiranga G. & C.C., Sao Paulo

4. Clube de Campo de Sao Paulo

5. Gavea G. & C.C., Rio de Janeiro (Thompson)

6. Itanhanga G.C., Rio de Janeiro (Thompson)

7. Buzios G.C. Rio de Janeiro

8. Club Curitibano, Parana

9. Porto Alegre C.C., Rio Grande do Sul

10. Condominio Costa do Sauipe, Bahia

[Tony Petersen]

  Has anyone had the opportunity to play North Oaks Golf Club in St. Paul, MN???

I've played it around 5 times, and have to admit that I like it ALOT!!! As a design, I would say that it ranks right up their with Jasper and Banff, though no where near as breathtaking in magestic scenery. Still, It's a STRONG course, and a great example of Thompson's later work.

[BCrosby]

Didn't Thompson have an office in north Florida (JAX?) for a while?

Bob

 

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Bob,
He did have a Florida office, I believe.

I am going to see those Brazil courses, hopefully next year.

I agree with the talk of the great sites, but it is always said in a somewhat demeaning way. I do not think Tom D. meant it that way considering his three best courses (in my opinion of course), Barnbougle, CK and PD are all on more visually attractive sites than any of Thompson's big five. Royal Melbourne is a better site than St. Georges and Cypress blows Cape Breton away from what I have seen. In Ran's comparison, I seem to remember Thompson coming second, which may be a little high. However, anybody who wants to stack up any architects top five against Thompson, I would be interested to read it. Mackenzie is the only clearly superior architect.

As for Thompson's lesser courses, Cataraqui is as charming as any course I have seen and has some unbelievable holes, mixed with a few duds, which Thompson did not work on. His work at St. Thomas is strong and his ideas for the second green (which were not implemented) were wild. Westmount could be in the same league as St. Georges, but too much of Thompson's work is hidden in maintenance and trees, what is there is great. Summit is another strong course, which owes its strength to a routing.

I do not see too many weaknesses in any of Thompson's work, with the exception of changes to the originals, which is hardly any fault of his.

As for his influence, he has certainly influenced all of the Canadian architects, Robinson and Cornish clearly and directly, but Carrick has gone through fazes of building "Thompson-like bunkers", McBroom is a member of St. Georges, I assume because he sees something he likes. Because they have not build Cape Breton or St. Georges, is as much about their own philosophies as anything, but I do not think it is because of any lack of influence. Even Mackenzie praised Jasper, which suggests to me that he may even have been influenced.

[ian]

Ben,

Thompson did do holes #5 and #6, borrowed #7, adapted #8 green into the brilliant par 3, and borrowed #9 (which he bunkered) at Catarqui. Hole #5 was much more interesting till it had all the mounds removed.

St. Thomas's 2nd was by Robbie Robinson, and the idea for the green across the river was too. I have looked at that site with the club once, but that was as far as they would go. There is always tomorrow.  

To further your comments, I agree they are all influenced by Thompson, but are either unwilling or incapable of doing work in his style.

[Adam_F_Collins]

I ask the question because I was just speaking to a friend who is concerned with the preservation of Thompson's work. I find Jeff's initial post quite interesting regarding the angle taken by Ken Donovan - I hope it works.

I feel like, for such a prolific architect - Thompson's work may be the most endangered.

Would anyone agree?

[ian]

Adam,

"I feel like, for such a prolific architect - Thompson's work may be the most endangered.

Why do you say this?

[Robert Thompson]

Adam: Ian asks the question because he's spent most of his professional life working to restore many of Thompson's works -- and he won't say it himself, so I will -- he's probably among the most knowledgeable when it comes to Stanley's work, having worked on more than 20 courses over the last 15 years.
I don't actually see Thompson's work in jeopardy -- quite the contrary, actually. There are some notable exceptions where Thompson courses have been butchered (Mayfair in Edmonton, a couple of courses in Winnipeg, for example), but largely having a Thompson course is a badge of honour to a club in Canada and many are spending lots of money to restore them. Take the likes of Cataraqui, St. George's, Westmount, and Jasper as examples.
So, no, I don't think Thompson's courses are likely to disappear anytime soon.
But let's pray that the Canadian government figures out what to do with Highlands Links before it is too late -- there is one Thompson course that has significant problems and is at risk for more.

RT

[Dan Herrmann]

I don't think all of Thompson's work is great.  Whirlpool in Niagara Falls, Ontario comes to mind.  Sure - it's a very nice course, but it certainly isn't great.

(PS - I absolutely LOVE Highlands Links)

[T_MacWood]

Who was better than Thompson?

I get the impression there were relatively few architects who really impressed MacKenzie...Thompson was one of them.

[Robert Thompson]

Dan -- I don't think anyone is arguing that all of Thompson's work is great -- I think there is a Tier 1 (including Highlands, St. George's, Capilano, Jasper, Banff and Westmount) and a second tier below that which includes the likes of Highlands, Cataraqui, St. Thomas, Peterborough and the like. Not sure if I even include Whirlpool in the second tier, though I don't think it is a bad course by any account. That said, there are very, very few architects whose work was all top grade -- there are MacKenzie courses, for example, in the UK that get little recognition and wouldn't be held in the same league as Crystal Downs, Pasatiempo, and Cypress. That doesn't mean they are bad -- just not great. That's where Whirlpool sits with me.

RT

[Adam_F_Collins]

Adam,

"I feel like, for such a prolific architect - Thompson's work may be the most endangered.

Why do you say this?

Ian,

I admit it's a loose comment - but for a guy who designed 145 courses, had a strong, international design business, impressed the likes of MacKenzie and was partner to RTJ, he's not that well-known.

I understand that you and Carrick Design did the work at St. George's and from what I saw, it was wonderful. But St. George's is a strong club in a wealthy region of Canada.

How many of his others are being restored by capable hands? How much money is going into Highlands? Who's doing the alterations at Digby Pines? How many of his international courses are being well-cared for?

Thompson is without a doubt, the greatest Canadian golf course architect in history. Yet is his work being properly recognized, preserved and cared for in general? How many of his courses have slipped away over the years?

Is Stanley Thompson revered as much for golf by the Canadian government as Tom Thompson is for painting?

Should he be?

[ian]

Adam,

About 10 years ago everything changed in golf when it came to understanding and preserving architects work. The old mantra of modernize was replaced with preserve as much as you can.

Yes many Thompson courses have had much removed, or occasionally little was truly done by him. we are lucky thgat most Thompson courses of signifigance remain relatively intact.

First Tier

Capilano is pretty much intact

Banff has had lots of work done to greens, but the layout remains

Jaspar is wonderfully close to it's origin

Highlands is all there, just undoing the horrible cart paths and repairing a bad bunker job and the course would be completely intact again. This is truly minor.

St. George's is the most changed. 3 new green sites have altered the course for good. They are looking at #3 green again, which could restore the 3rd hole, but don't hold your breath.

Second Tier

St. Thomas most of the holes remain, and the expansion by Robinson is excellent and was an improvement. Theorigional course was very short and very tight; only one truly great hole was lost.

Catarqui is almost completely intact, with just a few alterations that were very minor. The recent bunker restoration has really improved the course.

Westmount has lost the opening three holes (short and very dull) but otherwise is all intact. Robinson's additional three fit wonderfully in with the rest, and the course is outstaning other that the worst bunker job done to a Thompson course. That will be redone in about 7 years.

Highland Country Club (in London Ontario) features the original routing and most of the original greens.

Kawartha Golf Club, is almost entirely intact other than the 3rd hole and 5th green badly renovated by Moote. The course will have its bunkers restored this year and the 3rd hole and 5th green will be redone the following year. This one is worth seeing.

Thornhill has three holes altered from the original routing but has a number of excellent holes. It was actually a renovation project, so what was origional was always a question mark. Some additional bunkering has been done there, but half the bunkering was restored since it remain untouched.

Beaconsfield's bunkers are Thompson and last time I was there much was still intact.

Peterborough is missing three original holes, but the remaining 15 are intact, with most of the Thompson features preserved. Again this was actually a reno too, but he latered a lot of holes at the time. Some bunkering has been lost, but half remains completely original.

There are lots more, but this is likely boring.

Recently Lost

Seigniory Club / Chateau Montebello is the biggest recent loss to date (about 12 years ago I think) Watson rebuilt the course over the top of the origional. Some of the routing remains but none of the features.

Jeff Mingay tells me Mayfair in Edmonton was another great loss too.


Adam, there is lots of small examples of his work at Allandale and other little clubs where it quietly sits intact, because the money will never be there to remove his original features

[Adam_F_Collins]

Excellent reply, Ian. I thank you.

Do you feel that Thompson could reach a more favorable position in the eyes of the Canadian government? Could he be more of a "national treasure"? And could more of his work be designated "heritage property"?

Would that just lead to more pain than good in terms of red tape and regulations?