Green to Tee transitions and routing quality???

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

How far [approx.] will the carry be over the lake from the new 15th tee?

I suspect it's far enough that it wasn't an option in Crump's day.

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
How far [approx.] will the carry be over the lake from the new 15th tee?
I suspect it's far enough that it wasn't an option in Crump's day."

TomD:

I don't really know but I'd say probably about 210 or so. The carry over the lake from the present tip tees isn't as far as it looks and in Crump's day it was probably from what is now the regular tees (although Crump never saw that hole built). But as for the new back tees being an option in Crump's day I'm sure if he wanted to put a tee back where the new tee is now he definitely could have since Crump basically built that lake and obviously he could've started the beginning of the 15th fairway/lake where he wanted to. Matter of fact, some say a good deal of the money he dropped into that course might've been on and around the lake and the irrigation water works attached to it.

Don't forget the entire 14th green is basically a created island in what used to be sort of a watery/marshy area before the lake was done.

[Mike Worth]

Just throwing in my thoughts, and not to copy others thoughts already posted, but Gil Hanse's Applebrook has the best Green to Tee walks i've seen.  In many cases  the teeing area for the next hole is a few paces from the green, sometimes they are melded in as chipping areas.

Being a member of C & C's Hidden Creek, I can also attest to the short green to tee walks.  Hidden Creeks is easily the most walkable course I've ever played.  Much of that is owing to the relatively flat nature of the topography, but the green to tee walks are also a factor.  

An influence I didn't notice in this post may be the teeing area from #1 green to #2 tee at NGLA.  I'm surprised that a bona fide member of the "treehouse" hasn't mentioned this yet.

[TEPaul]

SS1;

NGLA's #1 green/#2 tee has been mentioned in this vein on here many times before. Actually originally it was a lot closer than it is now and was apparently almost melded. Apparently the back of the present green was part of the tee to #2. The interesting back of the present green including the back left bowl was apparently done by by Karl Olsen!

Also, one of the little natural features I like best about the tees of Hidden Creek is how some of the forward tees are hidden from the back tees by some slight natural looking shaping just behind them. #13 is probably the best example.

[frank_D]

....That is the element of green to tee transition. .... Can a golf course be great without good green to tee transition?

brother Mike_Young

"great" in terms of adhering to historic precepts - no

but for me i do not mind a distance between green and the next tee - maybe i just got used to spending that time adding my score walking off and away from the green and considering the particulars of the upcoming hole and being able to hit once i do reach the tee

i would rather "kill" the waiting by pacing my walk to the next tee than arriving sooner and having to wait

i don't know if the modern seven minutes span between tee times actually allow a quick green to tee transition without periodic interuptions - unless your off as the first group of the day

[George Pazin]

Mike,
If I can step right off a green and tee it up for the very next hole then that's great, but what if the very next hole sucks?
But what if the very next hole was a great one if it was located 150 yds away from that green, and there were a few more walks like that on the course? ?
Would a potentially great course ever get to be called that if it sacrifices vg/great holes to build average ones for the sake of intimacy?

 
 

Cetainly some valid points are made here, but I wonder how often a more interesting solution is foregone, simply because so many now ride and 150 yards is nothing. I think expediency rules, much to golf's detriment. If the land is good, how often does the situation arise where a short walk would result in a hole that sucks, while a 150 yard walk would result in a great hole? Less often than most would think, IMHO. I'd rather see an architect search harder for a walkable design that flows better.

I think I agree with Mike Young - flow to me is huge, and I don't think I would want a private course I belonged to to have many long green to tee walks.

Applebrook is far and away the best example I've seen of this, but my experience is certainly limited. There are probably tons of courses in GB&I where this type of flow reigns supreme.

[Brian_Gracely]

Assuming that many of today's architects site their greens first (maybe that's a bad assumption), is it possible that if they constrained themselves to the area within 30yds of those greens for tee-boxes, that we'd potentially return some of the quirk and subsequently interesting designs back to the game?

I was looking at some pictures I have of Raleigh CC (Ross), and I can easily see the next tee from the fairway of each hole.  I doubt that was have more than 200yds (total) from tees to greens, and it routed in the classic Ross style of high tees and greens.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Merion on this thread.
With the obvious exceptions of crossing Ardmore avenue, the proximity of tee and green is just about ideal.
I know that the walk from 13 green to 14 tee is rather long, but it just so cool walking in front of the clubhouse and..around...the putting green.
I remember playing in my first Hugh Wilson at Merion and being paired with Buddy Marucci..so I was a LITTLE NERVOUS.....We got to 13/14 and I was playing quite well, and oblivious to everything started to walk over the putting green..before Buddy put me straight..I thought that's it this will be my last Wilson !!! Fortunately it was not.
My personal favourite, is the complex of 14 green and 15 tee, where there is a perfect transition from 14 fairway into 15 tee..
The proximity of 17 green and 18 tee is always a source of entertainment if you are standing on 18 waiting to play, and someone is trying to negotiate one of the delicate trap shots just 10 feet away from you.