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Richard_Goodale

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2002, 06:16:55 AM »
"A History of Pacific Dunes"?

Isn't that kinda like Brittney Spears' autobiography?

Time will tell........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2002, 07:21:50 AM »
Rich Goodale:

In fairness to Tom Doak and Mike Keiser, there is no plan to produce a book on "The History of Pacific Dunes".

Instead, Tom plans to follow the example set by Tom Fazio and Steve Wynn (with Shadow Creek) and produce a book about "The Making of Pacific Dunes".

I fully support what Tom is doing.  Other than the Fazio/Wynn effort, the literature on golf architecture includes very few examples of good documentation of what went through an architect's mind during course design and construction.

Given that Pacific Dunes is an entirely different project/type of golf course than Shadow Creek, Tom's effort makes a lot of sense.

If Tom Doak can match or improve on the standard Fazio/Wynn set, students of golf architecture will be very grateful, I believe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Richard_Goodale

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2002, 07:33:08 AM »
Tim

I was just responding to a previous thread which used that phrase.  I accept your chastisement.

However, I would REALLY love for Tom and Mike to have a chapter at the end of their book entitled:  "The Future Evolution of Pacific Dunes."   We all know that when we get back up to Bandon 25 years from now, the town and its golf courses are going to look very different than they do now.  It would be great to see people closer to the situation letting us in on their thoughts as to how the inevitable geological, sociological, environmental and economic developemnt might occur......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

R. Wesselman

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2002, 03:03:38 PM »
Gentlemen,
You may have a course in mind that you would like to see the plans for, but the fact of the matter is, plans change from inception to course completion. Once the site is cleared, the architect may see a better hole location or a hole that was not discovered before.
You have to remember that even todays topo maps are sometimes incorrect, even with the technology that we now have.
Another point to remember is that many of these great courses were never completed by the original architects due to the death of the original architect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2002, 04:22:43 PM »
Rich Goodale:

My apologies if my tone was a bit harsh.

The Pacific Dunes book is a subject I have discussed with Tom Doak and I know both he and Mike Keiser were a bit concerned about publishing something so soon after the course opened.

But, I don't think they should worry.  As I said in my previous post, Tom intends to do something which really hasn't been done very much (except for the Shadow Creek book).  Also, how wonderful is it that Alister Mackenzie thought to document Cypress Point circa opening day.....and that Geoff Shackelford and Sleeping Bear cared enough to bring that to us?  Shouldn't Tom go right ahead and follow Mackenzie's example?

As for topics that might be included, I would certainly be interested in the context of Pacific Dunes, i.e., Mike Keiser's thoughts on the entire Bandon Resort and its relationship with the community of Bandon.

But, clearly the focus will be on the golf course itself and what Tom Doak and his team did to create such an enjoyable venue.

Also, one of the strengths of the Shadow Creek book is John Henebry's photography.  Having spent an afternoon with John, I know he would love to do something with Pacific Dunes.  Whatever happens, I just hope Joann Dost's superb picture of #11 is included.  That might be the best golf related picture I've ever seen.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

JayC

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2002, 04:36:16 PM »
Rich-
Since opening in '95,  I've often thought of your  "Future Evolution" chapter in terms of Sand Hills GC in Mullen.  The Sand Hills Region of Nebraska is quite fragile and at the same time can be an incredibly harsh environment for a golf course.  Fire is a real danger too.  Much advance planning and skill is needed to maintain the course in a condition we all would feel is acceptable.
They don't call 'em blowouts for nothing.
Here's to good weather in '02. ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2002, 04:24:10 AM »
Mine is a toughie: the guy upstairs and his band of shepherds who put together TOC. As Sir Guy Campbell said so well in 1952 ... "A beautiful collaboration of Man, Beast, and Nature".

Nowadays, I'd go for Pine Valley.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JayC

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2002, 07:35:53 AM »
Langford's Wakonda Club (1922) in Des Moines, IA. :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2002, 11:05:44 AM »
JayC

Thanks.  I've been trying to make the point that golf courses are both evolutionary and fragile for some time on this site, without much support.  Some people seem to think that they are sculpted out of marble or painted with fast dying acrylics.

Hope Sand Hills doesn't blow out or burn up before I get a chance to see it!

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2002, 11:24:23 AM »
Rich --

You write: "I've been trying to make the point that golf courses are both evolutionary and fragile...."

Maybe this is a semantic point, but I doubt it, and I'd be curious to see your response to my (completely agendaless, I hasten to say -- lest someone else get the idea that I'm saying something, rather than asking something) question:

You say that they ARE evolutionary.

Would you also say that they SHOULD BE evolutionary? That, in other words, attempts to freeze a golf course at a certain stage or return it to a previous stage goes against its very nature?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2002, 02:42:25 PM »
Rich
I do agree that golf courses do evolve and many improve with age. It would be ludicrous not to admit that  - but on the other hand not all golf courses improve over time and not all changes are good. Every case is slightly different.

 For example there are courses that were good from the beginning and that have been allowed to age gracefully.  They have evolved with little of no outside interference, courses like Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Merion, Shinnecock Hills, The Addington, Royal Melbourne, The Golf Club, Chicago and Franklin Park. Could it be argued that they may have been better at some early date, perhaps, but they are so good today that it would probably be more accurate to say they are simply older, softer, different?

There are courses that were excellent from the start that have not aged gracefully and have undergone major overhauls, courses like Scioto, Timber Point, Bel Air and ANGC. There are some that might argue they have been improved, but the majority of golf historians would disagree.

There are courses that were mediocre or good at the beginning and were steadily improved over the years into great courses, courses like Dornoch, Pebble Beach, Oakmont and Myopia Hunt. It might argued PBGL’s zenith was 1929, but it can’t be debated that the course today is miles better than when it was when it opened.

There are course that were excellent from the start that were excellent from the start but suffered from financial or maintenance difficulties – Pasatiempo and Banff come to mind. But because of current realities it is doubtful either will be able to recapture their past glory. Pinehurst #2 suffered terribly then was brought back.

There are courses that were excellent from the start that were victim of natural disaster, courses like the Olympic-Ocean and Sharp Park – and reality is they will never be the same or as good.  I’m not sure where SFGC falls, a course that has aged gracefully and victim of man-made disaster, that hopefully might restore the lost golf in an evolved form.

And then there the odd balls like Ohio State or Lookout Mountain that for whatever reason were never fully completed and to complete them would greatly improve their over all quality.

And thankfully there are a number of courses that were very good from the start and didn’t age gracefully. Trees were allowed to encroach, interesting features were eliminated, greens shrunk, etc. But thanks to talented architects or in-house care these courses may actually be better today than the date in which was the target of their restoration. Course like NGLA, Skokie, Yeamans Hall, Crystal Downs, Fenway, Charles River, etc.

There are great number of other courses that could also be improved by the removal of trees, expansion of fairways and greens and reintroduction of lost features. Do they need to be completely restored to a mint condition so that every inch is the same, so that every irregular edge is recaptured – no.  On the other hand if the course has been severely altered over the years and a skilled individual is able to recapture the original look – go for it. Otherwise a sympathetic restoration should match the evolved style.  Admiring the past and trying to improve golf courses through sensitive restorations does not mean you want to freeze the golf course or prevent it from evolving naturally. I don’t know anyone who thinks they are sculpted from marble. But I also know that it is not as simple or cut and dried as you contend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2002, 03:35:15 PM »
Dan K

I'm fairly neutral on what "should" be done to golf courses.  I think it varies, as Tom MacW implies.  In general, particularly in a geological time frame, you don't have any choice.  I am almost certain that in the next 100,000 years Dornoch will either be under the polar ice cap or several hundred feet of water, depending on whether global warming or cooling occurs.  In the short term you can fight nature, as they have done at Balybunnion and other places with the use of riprap on the seaside holes to stop the encroachment of the sea.  You can periodically revet bunkers that are prone to collapse or even blow out, as they do at TOC and other links.  In the intermediate term, however, some evoultion is inevitable, I think, adn should be fought only with a good understanding of hte costs nad beneifts of doing so.  In the end, the decision is that of the owners of the land.  If the Pebble Beach Company, or the members at Cypress, or of Pine Valley were to decide tomorrow to bulldoze what they got and give a blank check to Tom Doak to build what he wanted, I'd be a bit sad, but also very keen on seening what Doak might produce on any of those sites, from those landforms.

History is great, but life goes on.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2002, 04:48:58 PM »
Rich,
Given the level of today's computer programming it is possible to see what Tom Doak, or any other architect, could do with any or all of these properties.
I think we would see some differences but that's all it would be, different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SGD

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2002, 06:40:23 PM »
Speaking of Doak's forthcoming Pacific Dunes book, I've heard, on several occasions, rumors that a Sand Hills picture/documentation book exists.  I saw the leather bound picture book in the clubhouse that is public, but I didn't ask Jim Kidd whether a book exists that you can buy.  Does such a book exist?

I know, I can call the golf shop...(!) (a reference I've seen on other threads), but it ain't open yet.  

If anybody knows the answer to this one, I'd love to know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Erich

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2003, 11:39:27 AM »
Just digging through the arcives and was wondering about two of the supposed books discussed here;

Making of Pac Dunes and whether or not a book about Sand Hills exists?  Does anyone have an update on these?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

frank_D

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2003, 02:21:51 PM »
c) other

The Lido - seth raynor / c b macdonald - long island NY

possibly the best money could buy at the time - to compare to the best today's money is buying
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2003, 03:36:19 PM »
I think it would be interesting to come up with the plans Tillinghast made for Poxono G.C. If I had more free time, and a lot more money, it would be a noble goal to look into
the feasibility of building the course. I believe the land is
state parkland now, but getting a course like that built after some 70+ years would be quite a story!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2003, 06:16:03 PM »

Quote
I remember reading that Coore & Crenshaw laid out something like 125 holes at Sand Hills, and then chose the 18 they thought were best.

I'd like to see the other c. 107.

Dan,

If you ever get a chance to get out to Sand Hills they have a large map on which C&C sketched all of the holes laid out over the property before they chose the 18 finalists.  It was pretty interesting.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2003, 09:15:23 PM »
Dan and Turboe- Are you sure it wasn't Perry Maxwell who said this about Prairie Dunes. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2003, 09:19:51 PM »
Does Raynor's plan for Fishers Island-2 exist? What about the Ocean course (Watson) at Olympic - anyone seen that plan?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag Bandoon

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2003, 12:54:37 AM »
John Low and Stuart Paton's remodel of Woking.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2003, 03:31:38 AM »
I'd like to see the plan for course #2 at Barnbougle Dunes ...

MM
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Slag Bandoon

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2003, 02:29:12 PM »
 Sandpines GC in Florence, Oregon.

  Three Rivers GC in Kelso, Washington (built atop volcanish ash debris from Mt. St. Helens - an absolute clean slate - now a virtual tree farm).

Unfortunately both of these are to see "What were they thinking!?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2003, 09:00:45 PM »
You would be quite interested to see St. Louis Country Club's plan to renovate this CB McDonald classic. Brian Silva has created and implementation has begun. Re-creating shot values eroded over time is an interesting undertaking. For those familiar with the course-I'd be happy to share the changes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: Which plan would you most like to see?
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2003, 08:06:09 AM »
Hunt

Restoration is a topic that is really of great interest on this board.  We've discussed projects on many courses here on GCA and some contributors have been intimately involved in SOME of them. I'd really love to see you start a new thread about the St. Louis CC restoration.  As a member at Yale GC and one who has been trying hard to correct the horrid bastardization of that MacDonald/Raynor gem I know that people at Yale who have more influence on the project then I do lurk here to see what's being discussed. I'd appreciate them seeing yet another example of a MacDOnald/Raynor course going in the right direction rather then the one Yale has chosen.

What are the plans for St. Louis CC and how was the Master Plan arrived at?

What was the process that allowed you to choose Brian Silva for the work rather then lets say Roger Rulewich?

Is this to be a complete sympathetic restoration or will maintenance issues or issues of a truly restored course beeing too hard for the members ones that are being considered?

Is the restoration work and the final product being incorprotated with a plan by your superintendent to maintain the in a way that takes advantage of the architecture?

Are the members being educated about MacDonald's architectural theories and the strategies they require to play?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »