May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!

[pdrake]

I am anti-resort.........what is wrong with that.  Be it Pebble, Pinehurst, Kohler, Bandon or Palmetto Bluff.  Give me a good club and good golf.......that is all I ask for.  Lineage has nothing to do with it..........

[Joe Hancock]

This thread has degenerated from golf course architecture to golf course business models(and how one person will only think of playing one type of business model) with a whole lot of mud-slinging along the way. It's pointless and self-serving to take a thread in this direction.

[Top100Guru]

I must say, that for anyone to state, that a "Newbie-Course" like the "MRGC", has the "Same Total Experience" as Secession, is ubsurd. A Totally Private....with all of maybe 13K rounds a year....and never more than 100 people on any given day, with most days less than 20, a Classy lowcountry clubhouse, one of the best Golf Pro's in the business, arguably, the greatest single national membership in existence today (members from literally "EVERY" top club, both stateside and across the pond) versus a "Resorty, Nouveau-Riche", what have you done for me lately atmosphere? Hmmmmm??? I gotta wonder, if someone is really thinking clearly!!! I am all for nice golf courses and nice golfing experiences, but Secession is a "TRUE" golfers club, where MRGC will always be a "family-orientated" resort type course. I have no problem with either type of club, but I do have a problem with the comparison. Apples and Oranges here Mr. Brown. If you are really a good friend of Mike's, pick up the phone and share your comments with him, I am sure he would beg to differ with you on your assessment!!!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Played here yesterday with The Golf Course Superintendent
  May River is unlike any other Nicklaus designed golf course. (Probably cause he wasn't ther much!! ) The course strives to provide a rustic feel with gravel style cart paths, wooded rakes, native scrub areas and firm conditions.
  I think that MR has a great set of par 3's with #11 being a very good reverse redan.
  Each par 4 allows for many options, whether it be a bunker in the fairway, a tree that could block out an approach to a green, a large chipping area around the green, carrying a ball over a ridge, or playing a bump and run. I think these are some of the more bolder countoured greens that the Nicklaus firm has done. Some greens are very shallow and then there are greens like #11 that is 3 clubs from fron to back.
  The Par 5's are all good-Your drive on #4 has to be left to be able to have a go for it in 2, #8 is a really good par 5 with a waste area up the entire left side, to an elevated green with a bailout on the left. #15 has a great punchbowl green with 2 bunkers about 15 yards short of the green,(only 465yds) but I think that #10 takes the cake. #10 has options from the tee, second shot and also third, if needed. There is a 100+ year old unique, Pine tree in about 180 yards from the green right in the middle of the line of flight. This is the first hole that actually plays on the river. Reachable in 2 good shots, but there is 4 pot bunkers left of the green and the river to the right. MR also has many bunkers on the middle of fairways that make a golfer make a decision, but benfit by taking the more difficult route. (#8, #10, #12, #15, #18) Simply put, May River is Awesome-Greens are Champion Bermuda and the rest of the golf course is paspalum and none of it is overseeded, so everything plays fast. Love the used of small, undulated greens with chipping areas everywhere. I think that the waste area add a very good feature to the course and are used on many holes, but not over used. (#4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #12, #15 and #18)
  Overall, I think that May River will crack the Golfweek Top 100 and be a Top 10 in SC. I personally rank it ahead of Belfair and Colleton River. If I've looking for good conditions that play firm and fun, I'll take it over Harbour Town too.
  I was one of 3 foursomes on the day. May River is forcasting for 7500 rounds this coming season.

[JohnV]

 Each par 4 allows for many options, ...  or a large shipping area around the green.

A lot of water near the greens eh?

[dsilk]

this thread is exhibit A in why fighting is only a 5 minute major penalty- just drop the gloves and get it over with...

[Mark Brown]

This is just the typical paranoid Secession member defending his course and his investment, because so many people question the greatness of the course (not "the experience")
because there aren't many great holes, there are a couple bad ones and the freaking tidal marsh is everywhere.

[kurt bowman]

Well, since this thread took a turn for the worst before I could post I would like to start with a disclaimer.

" I HAVE NEVER PLAYED SECESSION GOLF CLUB, AND ANY COMMENTS THAT FOLLOW ARE NEITHER A SLAM, OR PRAISE FOR SECESSION GOLF CLUB. I HAVE HEARD THE EXPERIENCE IS SECOND TO NONE, AND ALL THE MEMBERS ARE TRULY SPECIAL PEOPLE." LOL

I was lucky to spend 2 years in the HHI area during the construction of the May River GC while working as the site coordinator for Nicklaus Design. Looking back on my time there is seems almost magical. The construction process was a blast mostly due to all the talented people that were involved in that job. I won't try to name everybody because I am sure I would forget someone, but every person, in every facet of that job had the same common goal. "TO CREATE A GOLF COURSE AS SPECIAL AS THE PROPERY IT SITS ON."

The goal when when JWN and Jim Lipe routed the golf course was near total avoidance of wetlands. Having said that we were able to route 4 holes along the May River, or it's tributaries. The golf course is a bit unique in the fact that is has five par three's, and 5 par five's. The back nine has three of each. Three of the five par 5's have alternate routes (choices) on either the tee shots or the second shots. The 7th hole which is a short (330yds) but undriveable par 4 plays along the May River marsh, and was described by JWN as the hardest easy hole he has ever designed. It may be the most controversial hole on the golf course as well.

I would like to clear a few misconceptions that have been posted previously on this thread.

Anthony: I am not sure who you information source was (and I would be interested to know) but JWN was on site on approximately 10-12 site visits. I personally don't think that would fall under the category of not having been there much. JWN realized immediately that this was a special "place" and a special client that would give us every resource to do something great. The look and style of MRGC is most definitely a departure of the look most people associate with a Nicklaus designed golf course. JWN is evolving as any good designer does. The shot values and strategy have not changed much, except for trying to keep up with equipment technology.

Mark B: Thanks for your kind comments, especially in light of all the grief you take for making nice remarks about a JWN design. I would like to believe that if a few GCA' ers played May River GC that we could make them a believer.

Cheers, Kurt Bowman

[kurt bowman]

Mark, One thing I forgot to ask you in the previous post. You mentioned 4 of the 5 par 5's were great, and 4 of the 5 par 3's were great. Just interested to know which ones that you left out.
I am guessing that number 11 is the par 3 that you didn't like as well as the others because of the steep bank down to the lake you were not fond of. That is a fair criticism.

I can't figure out which par 5 you think is the weak sister. The curiosity is killing me. I promise I won't skewer you, I just want to know. Kurt

[Anthony_Nysse]

Kurt,
  It's just a blanket statement with regards to Mr. Nickluas not being there. With so many projects going on, one would guess that it's hard for a designer, who name is on the course, to be there often. (ie, Fazio, Jones, etc...) Many architects that this DG loves, are those like Doak, Coore, Hanse, and DeVries who seem to live at the sites.

[Will E]

Is Jim Lipe the best thing ever to happen to Jack Nicklaus (golf design)? The work I've seen that Mr. Lipe has been involved with is SOOOO much better than the early (see the Bear) work that I've experienced. I think I had the same reaction that Mark had of , " I can't believe this is a Nicklaus"; when I played Bear's Club. I understand that Mayacama is a similar experience.

[Mark Brown]

Kurt,

First congrats on being part of building May River.

You are very perceptive. I'm not wild about the 18th hole. It's not well defined, particularly on the second shot and to the left of the green. And I really dislike the other steep bank on the course, guarding the green. I wish he hadn't used a water hazard here. The course doesn't need any man-made water hazards. And I like the putting surface but I really wish it was at fairway level, rather than raised. Mentally, I felt like I was hitting the ball over a wall, and I coudn't see much of the green.

What do you think?

[Mark Brown]

Shooter,

Lipe has been with Nicklaus a long time through their various design phases, incl. the penal one in the 80's, but Jim is very good, Nicklaus' best associate I think.

[Will E]

Mark,
What do you think has influenced the dramatic change in their recent designs?

[Mark Brown]

Shooter,

Lipe told me that Jack was giving his senior associates more freedom to create different types of courses. Nicklaus used to have a variety of cookie-cutter type holes and I think he wants to blend the course with the terrain more.

[Glen Rapoport]

Mark, I am a Secession member who can take some constructive criticism and still love the "Secession Experience."  It's great but certainly has some short comings. That being said, I ventured over to May River at Christmas time and found the people a the Pro Shop that I spoke with less than enthusiastic about have a "Rater" or a member at an adjacent club play the course.  They were happy to have me consider looking at property although they may have been saying that with a little 'tongue in cheek'.  Who would one contact in an attempt to view the course.

Glen

[klangone]

A resort course being snooty about access to a member of the prominent club in town..........what does this place think they are, Seminole?  I could see if they were totally private, but when anyone can call up with an AMEX and book a room and get a round in, this is what O'Reilly would call ridiculous..................

[klangone]

Mr Gracely,

Who are you, the GCA police??  If I choose to post and not lurk, what business is it of yours?  I was rightfully upset about some of these people on the board calling my office about gaining access to places I play.  Wouldn't you be a little upset if someone you never talked to called your office and started asking if they could join me for a round, etc.

I have decided to fight these lurkers and confront them on this board.  

What your post has to do with the Palmetto Bluff thread, I am still trying to figure that out.

[JakaB]

klangone,

Just ignore Gracely...he sent me a private message asking to play my course and after going through the trouble of setting it all up he cancels at the last minute to play hockey....then he concerns himself with my dress to the point he makes side bets on if I'm wearing certain gear or not when meeting other friends off of this board....a bet he lost by the way.  What do I get....what I don't get is a birth announcement...the twit.

btw...I was thrilled to see you back and look forward to many more interesting posts...

[Michael Moore]

This is a serious question.

What kind of a name is "Secession" for a golf club?

Is secession still a real urge down there?

[Brian_Gracely]

Mr.Langone,

We just seem to have a bunch of people on this site that occasionally like to bring attention to themselves by announcing their departure, so I was checking to see if your previous threats were valid.  Do I care about any of your posts..no.  But credibility should be something that's strived for on the site.  And we all get unsolicited calls at work, yours seem to be about access to golf and mine seem to always be from NY brokers that want to sell me the next Enron.  Your secretary should have been able to screen those, no?

[John_Cullum]

Michael Moore

I once uttered that I didn't care for the name Secession and pdrake and McConkey3 tried to haul me off behind the woodshed.

I still think its an odd name, but I've only got to watch over my shoulder for the big mac now.

[Andy Doyle]

secession \ n - withdrawal into privacy or solitude

Even without the geographical implications, an interesting name for a club ("an association of persons ...").

AD

[JDoyle]

MichaelM,

If I am not mistaken, the property where the golf club exists has a connection to South Carolina's efforts to leave the Union back in the day.

[Brian_Gracely]

Mr.Langone,

Your a public figure for god sake....get over yourself.  Soliciters come after the famous like you and the unwashed like me all the time.  You're right that it shouldn't happen, but neither should hunger, adultery, snap-hooks and all sorts of things that are unpleasant and inconvenient.  

I've mentioned to Ran before that he ought to replace that brown wallpaper on the side of the page with a ruler so people can just compare dick sizes and eliminate threads like this.  Maybe it's time we just started having prominent club threads that read "7", "12.5", "3".  It would accomplish the same thing.  

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