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Mark Brown

May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« on: December 23, 2004, 11:02:13 PM »
May River GC: Brand new Nicklaus course on fantastic tract of Lowcountry property. Huge oaks, palmettos, magnolias, tidal marshes, May River.

A lot of the credit goes to Jim Lipe, who said Nicklaus is giving his top guys a little more rein now, and some of his best work is being done now -- May River is a testimony to that.

I've played a lot of Nicklaus courses and I would have never believed it was a Nicklaus course if I didn't know it. It's very low profile with nothing being forced. (The only thing I didn't like were two steep grass walls surrounding the only greens where ponds came into play).

The fairways are fairly generous but many of them had small bunkers here and there to create risk/reward strategy and they worked very well. Some beautiful holes where the marshes come into play on one side and around the greens (on about 7 or 8 holes - not overdone) and very few forced carries.

Five par 3s (4 of them are excellent) and five par 5s (4 of which are fun and excellent.) Two great short par 4s and a good variety of longer  par 4s.

The course just melds into the terrain and a few of the marsh greensites reminded me of a low profile Cypress Point. Sandy areas were left very natural and Paspalum grass (looks like Bermuda, but is salt-water tolerant) was used everywhere but the greens which are Tif-eagle running at about 10). Fairways were pretty firm and their not overseeding anything-which is great. Bunkers were of all shapes and sizes and partially sand-faced.

Last but not least the greens were old school, relatively small and many of them had fall-offs (ala Pinehurst No.2). The shapes and contours of the greens were very creative (not unlike Crenshaw and Coore) and fun. They looked like they were done by hand with a small rake.

Had to plan every shot. If you missed a green in the wrong place, very tough up and down. Fall-offs were up to 5 feet high and cut tight. I used a putter pretty successfully 6 or 7 times. Par-fives were all reachable in length but at the risk of getting caught on the wrong side of the green -- alot of fun. Easy walk. Gotta see it to believe it.

Hard to tell on first playing with winter color, but I think top 100 (maybe top 50 or higher) on Golfweek rankings. Worth a trip. Very unique course

RE Blanks

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2004, 08:52:13 AM »
Agree.  This is a very good spot.  Not very Nicklaus like.  Currently under 40 members and one of the charms is having the course to yourself.  6 par 3's and 6 par 5's.  Favorite hole is 15 (par five) with a sunken green.  Shots that land 30 yards short will feed onto the green in fast conditions.  This course presents so many shot options instead of one forced carry.  One of the biggest surprises of the year for me.

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2004, 10:16:18 AM »
I have heard it is a spectacular piece of property and a great job was done on that land.  I have not made it down there to see it yet, but it is one that is high on my list.

From what I understand it has been sitting growing in for some time as well.  I imagine it is in great playing shape by the time it opened.

Does anyone know the story this is part of a huge tract of land back in there that was owned by one of the large paper companies right?   And the eventual possible master plan is that there is room/plans for like 6 more golf courses right?  Not part of this same development, but all part of the same large tract of land from what I heard.

What is the exact deal on this Mark, I imagine you have as good of knowledge as anyone on this?  How do you get back in there is do you get off of 278 somewhere near the new Hampton Hall or where exactly?
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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RE Blanks

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2004, 10:49:16 AM »
The name of the project is Palmetto Bluff.  It is located just north of Bluffton.  I know that May River Golf Club is the course for the first phase of the development, which is nearing completion.  The second stage will have another course, not sure who the designer is, but will not begin work until the first phase is completed.  The size of the project is actually larger than the island of Hilton Head.  Once you enter the gate you drive back into the property 7 or 8 miles to the clubhouse.  

I first walked the course last March and it was close to being complete.  I played the course before it offcially opened in September with a xerox copy of the score card.  It plays about the same now as it did prior to opening.  Go check it out.


Anthony_Nysse

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2004, 10:55:16 AM »
Turbo,
  You take 278 to Buckwalter Parkway (pass Hampton Hall) till you come to a light which is 46. Take 46 towards Savannah about 8 miles and the entrance is on your left.

Tony Nysse
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 07:10:53 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John_Cullum

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2004, 11:36:49 AM »
The land was owned for decades by the Union Bag Company, which later became Union Camp Paper Co. It was maintained by them as a corporate retreat hunting lodge. They primarily hunted deer, hogs, and turkey. There was not much Turkey hunting in the Southeast until about 15 years ago, so the opportunity to hunt Turkey was a rare treat in most parts of the country. My father hunted there one year and got a nice gobbler, about 19 lbs. It was the biggest bird taken on that hunt until late in the day when some congressman on his way back to the lodge shot a 22 pounder that was sitting on top of the turkey pen. (Am I sounding sort of like Tom Paul here. I need to go drink some wine) Union camp was bought out by International Paper corp a few years ago, and wild turkeys are everywhere now.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2004, 12:00:19 PM »
Daryl,

The land had been owned by Union Camp and later International Paper for many, many years and was used as a huniting camp for their top brass. It is 18 to 20,000 acres (about 3/4s the size of Hilton Head Island) and is virtually surrounded by the May River and its tidal marshes. A lot of it is going to be kept as a nature preserve (I think at least half of it). Crescent Resources, a division of Duke Power bought it to develop it in a very pristine and environmentally sensitive manner.

At one time it was permitted for at least 5,000 units and 6 golf courses. Crescent Resources (seemingly not concerned about making a profit short term) plans to do 3 courses and develop about 2,500 units -- some in a riverfront village with Charleston style streets and homes (neigborhood style) of which some is already built and is open to the public. The village also contains an Inn (50 rooms and suits, I believe - maybe less) and some small stores. It will be very charming and quaint when they're done.

There are also homesites of 2 to 10 acres for important people who want privacy and pricing is probably higher than most Hilton Head resorts and communities.

The land is probably the most spectacular Lowcountry property in existence because of the river, and the trees were never harvested and reforested. Some of the live oaks are ancient and huge, along with many other types of specimen trees. Much of it has been set aside for preserves. A dock with deepwater access will be built, but I don't think they plan to have a marina for environmental reasons.

The course is difficult to get access to it unless you stay in the inn (everything is pricey, but top drawer). No expense has been spared - everything is the best it can be but it has the low-key Lowcountry feel which is what people come here for. It's not overdone. The staff and food are outstanding.

They are a little unsure of who will get access to the course. Locally it's extremely difficult, but I know the director of golf (Charlie Kent - phone 843-706-6575 -- don't tell him I gave you his number please but you can mention my name) would like the course to get it's due recognition, so he's the one to call. The marketing people are not as receptive. My comment to him was that I feel any outstanding course has some obligation to share it with the world of golf, and he agreed.

Top courses here are starting to paint rather than overseed the greens and it looks very natural. They have paspalum grass which can't be judged until it has another growing season. They're not overseeding anything and I applaud them for that. They're doing things right. My gut feel is that they'll welcome a certain number of course raters and selected golf writers, as well as selected golf VIPS. They'll likely hire Crenshaw & Coore (conflict of interest until Chechessee Creek sells out memberships) or Doak for next course.

Directions: Coming from I-95 on 278. Take a right onto Buckwalter Parkway (there's a traffic light and it's right across
the road from Berkely Hall) about 5 miles until it deadends. Then take a right onto Route 46 and go several miles - there's a decent sized sign that says Palmetto Bluff on the left. It's a long ride back to the course and a security gate.

Cheers, Mark
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 12:07:43 PM by Mark Brown »

Steve_ Shaffer

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2004, 12:40:35 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

pdrake

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2004, 02:16:14 PM »
If you want to be a member of a resort course, this is the place.  If you want privacy and intimacy, give me Secession or Spring Island any and everyday.

Joe Hancock

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2004, 03:14:47 PM »
In the plamettobluffresort.com photo gallery.....Picture #4:

Would the crowd be going wild on GCA.com if this was produced by a smaller organization?

I think it looks like some terrific work. Should be worth a trip to those of means....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JakaB

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2004, 03:20:07 PM »
Why is access to the course an issue when you can just make a reservation from the web site.....looks public to me..

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2004, 03:28:36 PM »
P. Drake,

This is not a typical resort course. The inn is very small and expensive. It is a private resort and other than members or raters and writers who are blessed are able to play it. 40 rounds a day would be busy. It also looks and plays like private, old-style course. No signage at all, and excellent caddies.

It's also much better than Tabby Links on Spring Island (not an easy course to walk) which does not belong in the top 100. It is also a better course than Secession and the total golf experience is just as good.

pdrake

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2004, 03:33:06 PM »
can you call up with an AMEX and make a reservation???  YES...........then I do not want any part of it.  Who knows what type of nouveau riche are going to be there..............and comparing the atmosphere at Secession to any other club in the lowcountry is outrageous.  

JakaB

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2004, 03:42:01 PM »

It is a private resort and other than members or raters and writers who are blessed are able to play it.

Mark,

You forgot beloved architectural pundits....

SJ_McCarthy

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2004, 03:42:01 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong here, but anyone willing to shell out the per night fee can stay there, therefre exclusivity is not one of the words one can use to describe it.

You say the "total golf experience" is better than Secession?  I have yet to play Palmetto Bluff, however, I have played a lot at Secession and intimatley know the "golf experience" offered there, so my question to you is how often do you play Secession and whats your definition of "total golf experience"?

P. Drake,

This is not a typical resort course. The inn is very small and expensive. It is a private resort and other than members or raters and writers who are blessed are able to play it. 40 rounds a day would be busy. It also looks and plays like private, old-style course. No signage at all, and excellent caddies.

It's also much better than Tabby Links on Spring Island (not an easy course to walk) which does not belong in the top 100. It is also a better course than Secession and the total golf experience is just as good.

pdrake

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2004, 03:45:12 PM »
SJ..........Mr Brown has long been a critic of SGC........for some reason he just doesn't like the place.  I cannot see how, it is one of the most peaceful places on this great earth.

Joe Hancock

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 03:48:35 PM »
redanman,

You might have hit the nail on the head with your post!

I was refering more generally about the roly-poly nature of the created forms, but your observation about bunker edges says something. Come to think of it, it might say something about YOUR preferences and observations! Remember, I said nothing about what to look at!!!!! ;D

Joe

p.s. thanks for posting the pictures
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony_Nysse

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 03:55:59 PM »
Many more pictures can be found on Jack Nicklaus' web site. Follow the links below...

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/mayriver/

Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2004, 03:56:04 PM »
SJ

I've played Secession about 30 times and watched it being built by Tim Moss and Bob Walton, and Mike Harmon is a good friend. Everybody on GCA knows what a good golf experence is. I have several pages on it if you want it. You're not likely to see enough players on May River at once to impact your golf experience and there will be no slow play.

I think Secession is an excellent course but the 17th hole is one of the worst in golf and the greensites and putting surfaces don't require a lot of great shot-making. The ever-present marsh hazards are its main difficulty -- hardly a typical classic course.

Why not go play May River and see for yourself. This is my opinion after playing it once. I posted this not to promote it but to create awareness for my friends on GCA.

All the Best, Mark

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2004, 04:01:41 PM »
Mr. Drake

I have not been a long time critic of Secession. What are you talking about. It's an excellent course and experience. I just don't like No. 17 and there's a lot of marsh in play which is not typical of a classic old-style course. It's quite penal off the tee for me.

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2004, 10:38:16 PM »
No, I have no business interests with any golf courses. Retreat back into your narrow little world and don't bother considering anything new. I thought GCA was started for friendly discussion of ideas not personal attacks on people. I don't care to be part of this type of discourse.

End of discussion for me.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 10:44:18 PM by Mark Brown »

pdrake

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 02:23:21 PM »
If this is the same Mark Brown that is involved with Mark Brown and Associates in Hilton Head, he definitely has some type of relationship with Palmetto Bluff.........he has the club on his client list.  I also see just about every other lowcountry club on that list except Secession..........

Mark Brown

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 08:10:32 PM »
PDrake

I did some golf course photos for Palmetto Bluff as well as Secession. Again, currently I have no golf course clients.
If I had known there were guys like you on GCA I would have hidden my identity like many other do.

End of any discussions with you ever.

SPDB

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2004, 12:51:09 AM »
can you call up with an AMEX and make a reservation???  YES...........then I do not want any part of it.  Who knows what type of nouveau riche are going to be there..............

Jeezus Phil,

Is there no beginning to your discretion? Christ, I think you should buy a home there. Would it kill you to consort with the other arrivistes?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2004, 12:55:50 AM by SPDB »

SB

Re:May River GC @ Palmetto Bluff - You won't believe it!
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2004, 10:52:48 AM »
Good heavens, NOT the nouveau riche!!!  I, myself, only play at those establishments that exclude all but those with proper lineage.  We can't been seen fraternizing with the commoner, now can we.   :P

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