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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2003, 10:03:33 PM »
mdugger,

I stayed out of it until Daniel Wexler brought me into it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2003, 10:41:51 PM »
Yes, that's true, I did.  

But Pat, it was lighthearted-- well, the "questions" aspect anyway.  That you'd only post under your real name I was dead serious about.

DW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2003, 04:24:20 AM »
Look at this discussion about apparently copying golf holes and concepts of known golf holes of famous designers of the past. Look at how quickly it degenerates into accusations by contributors on here that other contributors "idolize" various designers and that they aren't willing to question what they say.

Question Tom Doak or anyone else! And if that seems unfair or too difficult to do then at least there can't be anything wrong with discussing or remarking on what you THINK they already have said on here (about a particular subject).

Sometimes it's difficult to even have a discussion on here because contributors start questioning each other on whether they even have a right to discuss certain subjects, accusing each other of playing favorites, of not being fair, etc!

Just talk about it! Tom Doak can always defend himself if he feels the need to which he probably doesn't.

From what I've read from Tom Doak on this subject on this thread, and in the past on the same subject, is he feels creatively an architect probably has some responsibilty to create his own holes, instead of blatantly borrowing holes that have been used and over-used by others. Particularly holes with really recognizable names and such like a redan.

And if an architect is going to create something that may look something like a famous hole of a famous architect at least don't blatantly advertise that fact using the architects name. Seems to me that's what Tom Doak is talking about and maybe said he thinks 'stinks'. So what? It probably does stink since clearly that architect would seem to be trying to get additional notice for something by piggy-backing on the name and reputation of a well known old architect.

But I think additionally Tom Doak has said a number of times that he thinks any architect should at least attempt to create golf architecture that is as fresh as he can make it given the ramifications of various sites and such. What's wrong with saying that?

Obviously Tom Doak is completely aware that there're only so many original and fresh architectural concepts that're possible but if something you do has some similarity to something a Ross or MacKenzie may have once done, then at least don't advertise that fact.

It's sort of like one of the holes at Stonewall2 that does look a bit like a redan but apparently Tom Doak told his crew to please not try to advertise that fact!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2003, 06:35:17 AM »
I read an article recently which puts an interesting twist on this debate (not including the amusing "Bias!  Free Pass!" interjections).

This article was about how the Chinese view art.  Apparently, to them, a beautiful copy is just as important and valuable to them as art as is the original.  A "copy" which improves on the original is better still (viz. CB's "Redan" at NGLA).  Given this philosophy, why not have 10 or 50 or 500 "Amen Corners" out there--particularly if the alternative is just another golf course, unique and as lovingly designed and built as it may be?

Also, if it is true--and I very much think it is--that the Chinese will dominate world culture by the end of this century, if not before, maybe the best built and looked after "replica" courses will dominate the Top 100's that our grandchildren will want to play.

All you archies out there--maybe this retro-naturalistic-individualistic bandwagon is the wrong one to be on if you really want to try to make your mark in GCA history!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2003, 06:51:18 AM »
I'll go out on a limb and say that all of our favorite songs are played with notes that have been played before, in structures that have been used before yet each song is different.  New songs are "constructed" with old ideas.

Isn't learning to find and use these classic strategies sorta like learning your scales?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Raelian

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2003, 07:06:58 AM »
Ah ha! A late push here in favor of replication. I like the way Rich brought in a different culture. That is in fact good for this group, a group sometimes needing to break out of its cultural bias. Also, well said Eric. And remember, songs are often covered with enthusiastic response. All good ideas. A more well rounded discussion never hurts.

Having said that, would anyone be interested in discussing cloning? We have secured some of MacKenzie's DNA and we think we can make a go of it...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2003, 07:11:46 AM »
Rae,

If you can produce, let's see it!    ;D::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

ForkaB

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2003, 07:36:37 AM »
Rae

You're too late, man.  Tom Doak has already come into contact with so much DNA from MacKenzie's old routing plans that he has now taken to wearing a kilt and acting tetchy when anybody else uses MacKenzie quotations in their promotional literature.

On a related note, Tom Paul has been under treatement for several years at a secret laboratory in Philadelphia (right across the street from Gulph Mills) and is more than half-way along in his quest to look like Ben Crenshaw rather than Andy Williams.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2003, 07:37:41 AM »
I played Royal Links in Las Vegas and it was disappointing to say the least. Everything was different, the grasses, the scale, the temperature, the wind, the humidity,the ambience.

In my previous life, I was in the textile business. We would take great old printed fabric from the 1850's, and use them for inspiration, not for copying. If we had a great artist, usally we got wonderful results. If we gave it to an average artist, we got a bunk for replica mediorce art.

A great artist is like a great architect. Their eyes see differently than the rest of us.

I think this is the point of visiting all the old courses in Ireland and Scotland. They provide inspiration to creative minds, and open up their eyes to new possibilities. Then, when they get a project in which the land talks to them, they see holes that they may not have seen before.

In addition, when working with a flat uninpiring piece of property, it opens the land up to a greater menu.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Steven Tyler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2003, 04:52:23 PM »
My people just alerted me to this article. Why is my name being mentioned alongside Vanilla Ice in a golf magazine? Was this meant for Rolling Stone?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2003, 06:00:27 PM »
Steven Tyler:

Wish I could answer that-- and I'm the one who "wrote" the article.  I'm really not sure where those first couple of paragraphs came from, but they definitely weren't in the version I turned in.

Geoff Shackelford: Which is worse, Vanilla Ice or Billy Sixty???

DW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2003, 07:42:08 PM »
I made the mistake of playing a replica course in MB, SC a year or so ago and I walked away more disappointed than anything.  There was a sign on one hole indicating that it was a replica of 16 at Augusta and I still wanted to ask the Head Professional if they had put the sign on the wrong hole.  I think that it is similar to Jon Bon Jovi singing Sinatra covers.  I have told many people that if on the day that I do play Augusta, there is someone waiting behind the 18th green asking me for my clubs and telling me that I could never play again, that would be fine with me.  I am fairly certain that that would not be the feeling would not be the same on a replica.  I live in Atlanta and there is a new Bear's Best that is receiving good reviews but I am undecided about making it a priority to play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2003, 08:06:02 PM »
Rich comes up with another solid idea that the Chinese are likely going to dominate golf and golf architecture in the future with exact replica courses and such.

Not sure where the Chinese have been for the first few hundred years of golf and golf architecture but that's a small point and really shouldn't matter.

There can be little doubt that Max Behr was just a latter day personification of Lao-tzu and his Taoist philosophies on naturalism in golf and golf architecture which are simply an important part of the Tao (which of course anyone can clearly see in Behr's writing if they would only bother to read him carefully enough)!

Creative and unique non-replication architecture will be considered an example of the Godless, selfish, heathen West, lead by the United States, of course.

Doak, Hanse and Coore & Crenshaw will not be allowed in the People's Republic of China and the Great Canadian/American/Scot Western golf transporter and replicator, C.B. Macdonald, will become the new age icon of the Chinese people!

An aging Rick Goodale will rail against both West and East as golfing fudgers and cheaters for not adopting the obsolete and nearly forgotten CONGU system of golf handicapping.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2003, 02:04:43 AM »
Steven Tyler:

Having now had a chance to read "my" article in Links more completely, I can tell you that you are far from the only interloper in the piece; there's a whole lot in there that I didn't write.  So in case you're curious....

All references to C.B. Macdonald, Seth Raynor, history and architecture are mine.  All references to musicians, movie makers, Tom Keating (who I've never even heard of) and Elvis impersonators were the creation of some very bored person at Links.

Not that it will change the face of history but if anyone's interested, I'd be happy to post the article that I actually wrote...

DW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2003, 04:00:06 AM »
Daniel

I, for one, would be interested in having you post the original article.

Thanks

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2003, 04:57:15 AM »
Okay Rich and Steven Tyler (and the rest of Aerosmith?), here's the version I turned in.  Note, please, the sidebar at the end (ultimately omitted completely) which was to accompany an aerial of The Lido's 18th hole discovered recently by the incomparable Craig Disher.

[I'm doing this in multiple parts as the text appears to be too much for a single post...]


  For most historians, the 1911 opening of Charles Blair Macdonald’s National Golf Links of America marks the birth of golf course architecture as we know it.  Intended to set a standard in strategic design, The National was a strikingly unique work in that it featured two types of holes: those original to Macdonald and those modeled after time-honored classics of the British Isles.  Ironically, such luminaries as Bernard Darwin and Horace Hutchinson cited Macdonald’s originals as generally being the layout’s best, but it is unquestionably for the replica holes that The National has become most famous.
  Macdonald’s approach was carried on by a pair of his disciples, Seth Raynor and Charles Banks, and would ultimately be employed – at least for the occasional rendition – by nearly every famous architect of the game’s pre-World War II Golden Age.  Following the War, however, as men such as Robert Trent Jones and Dick Wilson made difficulty the cornerstone of modern design, the replica concept lapsed quietly into obscurity.
  Or did it?
  For more and more frequently during our recent golf construction boom, we have seen all manner of replica holes being built, some paying homage to the timeless designs of the past, others attempting simply to capitalize upon them.  Whether such renditions are tasteful or tawdry often lies wholly in the eye of the beholder, but modern replica facilities can generally be classified in two groups: relatively exact copies of famous holes as part of a “theme” course or C.B. Macdonald-style adaptations of celebrated design concepts, tailored to a more individualized canvass.
  Despite its current popularity, the former or theme layout is hardly brand new.  Indeed, its roots can be traced back at least to the 1960s when the Tory Pines Golf Resort in Francestown, New Hampshire modeled nine holes after some of the world’s finest.  This largely forgotten adventure was abandoned during the 1970s (later to be built over), leaving historical recognition of the pioneer role to the Golden Ocala Golf & Country Club in Ocala, Florida.  There, in 1986, architect Ron Garl included eight replica holes in an otherwise original design, copying such disparate classics as St. Andrews and Augusta National to generally favorable reviews.  As a private club, however, Golden Ocala remained largely unknown beyond its immediate area.  The Donald Ross Memorial Course in Harbor Springs, Michigan, a 1989 resort layout replicating 17 Ross holes, has remained similarly underpublicized.
  Of course, few things attract widespread attention better than litigation, which leads us to perhaps the most famous of replica facilities, the Tour 18s.  Tour 18 Inc., based in the Houston suburb of Humble, first appeared on the scene in 1992 with a hometown layout incorporating direct copies of 18 famous holes from prominent PGA Tour sites.  Shortly thereafter, they were sued in federal court for copyright infringement by several featured courses including Pebble Beach, Pinehurst and Harbour Town.  In 1994 a judge ruled largely in Tour 18’s favor, allowing the use of the copycat holes but forbidding the names or trademark icons of the original courses (e.g. the Harbour Town lighthouse) to be employed in any promotional manner.  So blessed by the courts, Tour 18 opened a second replica track outside Dallas, this one featuring “America’s 18 Greatest Holes” and finishing with a pre-2002 rendition of Augusta National’s Amen Corner.  The company’s most recent project is a “concept” 18 (i.e., inexact hole copies) at a Spring, Texas real estate/corporate development called Augusta Pines.
  The fallout from Tour 18’s legal troubles is reflected in the more cautious marketing of the World Tour Golf Links of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, a 27-hole replica facility which promotes its holes as being “inspired by” the world’s best.  Similarly, Renditions Golf of Davidsonville, Maryland offers a disclaimer reminding players that they have not received permission to reproduce their chosen 18 and are in no way affiliated with, or endorsed by, the clubs represented.  Yet each carefully reproduces well-known (though occasionally offbeat) holes and are not bashful in detailing their selections.  Notably, both include their own versions of Amen Corner, whose three famous members are quickly taking their place with North Berwick’s hallowed Redan among the world’s most copied holes.
  On the list of places not copying Augusta, we must assume, are Jack Nicklaus’s entries into the replica game, Bear’s Best.  Located in Georgia and Nevada, these joint ventures with Dallas-based ClubCorp feature Nicklaus reproducing his own high-profile designs— an apparently litigation-proof formula, but one which may lack some of the panache of Tillinghast, Ross or MacKenzie copies.  Indeed, while Jack & Company can surely recreate their own designs faithfully, a brief glance at some of the represented courses (St. Mellion, Old Works, Las Campanas, Desert Mountain) suggests that even if they couldn’t, most of the holes aren’t famous enough for the average player to discern the differences.
  The obvious selling point of such facilities, of course, is fantasy: that in one day – and at a manageable price – the golfer can approximate playing numerous classic holes which, in the real world, he likely lacks both the entrée and financial wherewithal ever to see.  And to a large degree the concept works.  For with greens fees running in the $60-$80 range, Tour 18 (by far the most established operator of the bunch) reports a healthy 60,000+ annual rounds at each of their replica layouts.
  But the downside of the copycat game is equally clear:  Even if one faithfully reproduces the contour and strategy of a classic hole to the utmost degree, it will still lack the climatic, aesthetic and overall sensory ambiance of the original.  In short, how can one possibly recreate the experience of Pebble Beach in the middle of Texas?
  While such a battle is, by nature, largely unwinnable, it seems only fitting that the boldest attempt should be made in that capital of the enlightened put-on, Las Vegas.  There Walters Golf has invested some $32 million in the Royal Links Golf Club, a British-flavored layout featuring 18 holes copied from past sites of The Open Championship.  The anticipated selections from St. Andrews, et al. are dutifully represented but, in this case we must certainly tip our caps to the developer’s dedication to the realistic.  For in addition to sending architect Perry Dye back to the Old Country to examine the originals firsthand, other novel touches include the installation of multiple irrigation systems tailored to the various types of replica grasses and the inclusion of historical markers indicating the locations of great Open Championship moments.  Such commitment to detail comes with a price, however, as greens fees at the Royal Links can run as high as $255.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2003, 04:58:31 AM »
Continued...

 All of which brings us back to Mr. Charles Blair Macdonald.
  It is both interesting and amusing to ponder how that cantankerous old gent might view such copycat facilities, for his groundbreaking brand of replica work was strictly about stylistic adaptation.  This creative interpretation of classic holes was, in fact, common among the game’s legendary designers, from A.W. Tillinghast’s Redan at Somerset Hills, to Devereux Emmet’s frequent repetition of various personal favorites.  Indeed even that apple of the modern imitator’s eye, Augusta National, was itself somewhat an adaptation, offering several holes whose strategic features were lifted proudly by Dr. MacKenzie from classic British originals.
  But Macdonald and his protégées, Raynor and Banks, were surely the champions of this creatively imitative approach, leading a field which frequently blended time-proven templates and strategies into the unique contours of the local terrain.
  Architect Brian Silva recently revived this methodology at the Black Creek Golf Club near Chattanooga, Tennessee, a visually striking layout which echoes both the Macdonald/Raynor aesthetic and their essential design philosophy.
  “Only four holes – the Redan, Biarritz, Short and Punchbowl – are direct lifts from Macdonald and Raynor,” Silva explains.  “The others are all original in strategy and character, but detailed on the ground in the Macdonald/Raynor style.”
  The result is perhaps the finest form of modern replica work, a layout which likely brings the golfer far closer to the Macdonald/Raynor experience than a theme course brings one to Augusta or St. Andrews.  “Reproducing the feel of the land, the climate and other factors is tough,” Silva notes.  But clearly, when duplicating style rather then exact specs, a capable architect can achieve a great deal.
  Another such designer is George Bahto, Macdonald and Raynor’s biographer and restorer of their courses up and down the East Coast.  In 2001, Bahto completed his first original project, the Stonebridge Golf Links in Hauppauge, New York, a 6,245-yard layout featuring both pure replicas and a number of original holes intended to capture the Seth Raynor flavor.
  “My goal was to honor Raynor’s architecture,” says Bahto, “not to put my own footprint on things.  I believe that Stonebridge offers the public-course player an opportunity to experience the design philosophies of Macdonald and Raynor that he might not otherwise get, especially around the greens which are modeled after some of my favorite Raynor originals.”
  And on this last point in particular, Stonebridge certainly seems to have succeeded, even with purists.
  “If George wasn’t creating those greens as a tribute to Raynor,” observes noted writer/historian Geoff Shackelford, “golfers might think the architect was nuts.  But he was remaining faithful to the old style and, as Raynor did, he was able to subtly inject some of his own ideas to make play more interesting.”
  Perhaps the most novel undertaking of this type is even more recent, at McCullough’s Emerald Golf Links near Atlantic City, New Jersey.  There, on a former landfill, New York-based architect Stephen Kay created a 6,535-yard layout featuring holes modeled primarily after classic British and Irish originals.  Like Silva and Bahto, Kay’s versions are intended less as exact copies than creative replicas, though fans of the Open Championship may recognize such mainstays as the Postage Stamp at Troon, the 10th at Turnberry and the Long 14th at St. Andrews.  Interestingly, many more of Kay’s holes are based on less-famous originals from places like Royal Portrush, Nairn, Prestwick and Gleneagles.
  But for the true fan of Golden Age design, all of this pales in comparison to the course’s centerpiece: a replica of the 18th hole at C.B. Macdonald’s long-lost Lido Golf Club, in Lido Beach, New York.  This epic original was itself based upon Dr. Alister MacKenzie’s drawing of an optimum par four which won a 1914 design contest sponsored by the British magazine Country Life.  Providing three distinct lines of play with starkly varied degrees of danger, MacKenzie’s plan was somewhat altered by Macdonald to fit the Lido’s narrow site.  At the Emerald Golf Links, however, Kay enjoyed a wide enough corridor of play to copy the full magnitude of the original, with the result being a hole stretching a staggering 160 yards in width!
  But is it truly a faithful replica?
  “We tried our best,” says Kay, “but we only had MacKenzie’s drawing to work with.  We measured and scaled everything, including the size and shape of the green.  The only difference was the steepness of the contouring.  MacKenzie’s four- and five-foot contours would be too severe for modern green speeds.”
  An additional difference is the defense of an island section of fairway.  In MacKenzie’s drawing, it was surrounded by beach (his ideal hole naturally being a seaside affair), a hazard for which Macdonald substituted thick rough and reeds.  At the Emerald Golf Links, Kay approximated the beach by constructing a three-acre waste bunker— and therein lies the crux of the issue: If a replica cannot match the precise playing characteristics of its chosen original, will the golfer find it disappointing?  If it is framed against an industrial park instead of the Pacific Ocean, or routed across the Nevada desert instead of Scottish coastline, is the experience substantially diminished?
  Speaking strictly in terms of dollars and cents, we can answer this with a cautious no.  For replica courses of both the copycat and adaptive variety have succeeded in generating both significant attention and a steady clientele, and their ranks are proliferating— though hardly at an eye-popping rate.
  Aesthetically, the criteria are different.  Given the acknowledged difficulty of reproducing the unique characteristics of the chosen original, we can perhaps liken copycat or theme layouts to the lithographs of famous artworks one so often encounters; a thoughtful interaction may convey some sense of the real thing, but the overall experience is seldom likely to be confused with it.
  Stylistic adaptations, on the other hand, would appear to fare better.  For the best of such works manage to convey – with a little imagination, anyway – the sense of playing an additional design by a legendary architect, not some almost-accurate modern facsimile.  But what of designers less regimented than  Macdonald and Raynor, whose styles are tougher even to identify, much less convincingly duplicate?
  Thus at the end of the day, the copycat variety may well enjoy a brighter future, for the concept can be repeated ad infinitum and seems to fill a legitimate niche.  One might wonder at what point the novelty of attacking Pebble Beach in suburban Houston begins to wear off, but as architect Silva observes:  “Most golfers can’t play at Augusta National.  Straight replica courses provide an alternative experience, and there’s probably some real value in that.”


SIDEBAR

  Stephen Kay might well be forgiven if his replica of the Lido’s 18th doesn’t precisely match C.B. Macdonald’s original, for Kay was working without benefit of a photograph.  But recently, golf historian Craig Disher discovered perhaps the only surviving aerial of the Lido, dated 1942.
  As the highlighted section indicates, Kay’s work was pretty well on the mark.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

john stiles

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2003, 06:50:56 AM »
Hello,

I have copied three brief quotes from the Boyne USA Resorts / Boyne Highlands web page.  It is not taken out of context but from paragraph(s) promoting the golf on various pages.  

Please read through these quotes.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////
QUOTE (1)

" Boyne Golf- Spanning the nation the spectacular backdrop of Montana to the rolling hills of northern Michigan. The focal point of Boyne USA's golf collection is centered in the prime golf environment of Michigan's northern lower peninsula, also known as "America's Summer Golf Capital". These 162 holes of world-class golf are the products of some of the game's masters including Robert Trent Jones, Arthur Hills, Donald Ross and soon, Pete Dye. All lie within an easy drive or shuttle ride of each other and promise a richly diverse offering of holes for any length vacation. "

QUOTE (2)

"   Ever since Robert Trent Jones left his mark on Boyne Highlands it has been known as the heart of America's summer golf capital™. The four world-class designer courses, including Jones' perennial top 100-ranked Heather, have placed Boyne Highlands in the forefront of Michigan's golf facilities winning the prestigious Silver Medal for facilities and service from Golf Digest, 5 straight times.

Donald Ross, Arthur Hills and William Newcomb have some of their best work displayed here. The renowned, Jim Flick makes his summer home here and oversees numerous clinics and instructional programs such as Boyne's famous Super Five Golf Weeks and our acclaimed Highlands Golf Academy which are geared for all levels and ages of golfers. "

QUOTE (3)

"The Donald Ross Memorial
featuring ProLink Satellite Yardage Sytem

Over five hundred golf courses were designed by Scotsman Donald Ross, the "Michelangelo" of golf course architecture. His designs reflected the philosophy that golf courses should be subtly deceptive rather than unduely penal... a true test for skilled players yet enjoyable for golfers of all abilities.

Eighteen recreations of the master's greatest holes. St. Andrews, Pinehurst, Royal Dornoch, Inverness, Oakland Hills and others pay tribute to this accomplished designer. Greens are painstakingly detailed. Rated one of the state's finest by Golf Digest. "

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

GCA guys would know the situation but maybe some would not.

I think this is some of the advertisements that Daniel Wexler, Tom Doak, et al were referencing.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2003, 07:58:55 AM »
I hadn't looked at this topic for 2-3 days because I don't really want to waste time arguing with faceless "Guests."  I don't really mind when people post anonymously sometimes, but I suspect the guest has a personal beef with me and has to use a pseudonym so I don't call him or her on it.

Thank you, John Stiles, for digging up those quotes from Boyne Highlands.  It's the first quote they use in their TV ads up here, although they haven't started using Pete Dye's name yet.

I complained about the trend for every designer to use quotes from MacKenzie or Thomas or whomever, which has gotten out of hand.  Perhaps some of these designers really have studied a lot of their work and respect it in their own designs, but I think it should also be pretty obvious (even to Guest) that probably some of the "quoters" are less than sincere.  I picked on the ones I "have never heard of" (really) because I would guess the odds of their insincerity are higher, but notice that I didn't disparage their work -- I don't even know if they have any.

TE Paul:  Thanks for coming to my defense.  The 17th at Stonewall 2 is, in fact, a Redan hole.  It was a pretty obvious natural setting for such a hole -- long par 3, world tilting to the left -- but at the start of the job I told Don Placek that I thought we had done too many Redan holes (three or four out of 13 courses) and we should try something else there.  We tried a couple of different things, which looked really awkward, and then I gave up and built the Redan that's there now.  It's a bit more like the 17th at Mid Ocean than the others we've built, though I didn't notice that until after it was done.

On the other hand, of the six best holes on the course, four were not inspired by any golf hole in particular.  I'm sure there is some golf hole somewhere in the world with a similarity to the par-5 eighth, but I don't recall where.  (The green is a bit like our ninth at Riverfront, but since it's approached from above and it's a par-5 instead of a par-4, it plays much differently.)

My main goal when designing a new course is to create several interesting holes that aren't quite like anything we've done before.  The bothersome part is that when golf writers or architecture aficianados come around to see them, they comment first on our great Redan!  Which is why I'm trying to get away from using any classic holes at all, no matter how great they may be.

P.S.  As "Guest" and everyone else knows, I think the National Golf Links is one of the finest courses in the world.  I like everything about it:  the great Redan which is better than the original, the Road green, but above all the first and sixth and eighth and tenth and fifteenth and seventeenth holes which are NOT replicas of famous British holes.  Moreover, the National was built when hardly anyone in America had any idea what the great golf holes of Britain were like.  I suppose those building "replica" courses can make the same argument today, that Joe Public hasn't ever played the Redan so we'll give him one, but ask yourself this question:  are they really out to promote golf architecture, or just to make a buck?  I think the answer was different for C.B. Macdonald than for Mr. Walters in Vegas!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2003, 09:45:05 AM »
Quote
All references to musicians, movie makers, Tom Keating (who I've never even heard of) and Elvis impersonators were the creation of some very bored person at Links.

Mr. Wexler --

Only one man's opinion -- having read the article as Links published it and having skimmed the article as you submitted it:

That very bored person at Links (a.k.a. your editor, who's undoubtedly very bored because so many of the magazine's other writers don't work hard enough to make sure even the editor isn't very bored) improved the piece by punching up the lede, giving it a larger-than-golf context. And I think the Elvis line is a good one. The only editorial misstep I spotted was that parenthetical "(sigh)" your editor inserted. (No editor should be allowed to sigh on behalf of a writer.)

Are you saying that your editor never talked to you about what he or she was up to? Never asked you to jazz up your lede, but just went ahead and did it -- without consulting you, and without showing you an edited version? I'd certainly object to that, if I were you -- and I'd give the editor a bit of grief for inserting a mistake into your copy: The expression is "palming off," not "pawning off."

As I said: One man's opinion.

-----

To the rest of you: Some wag advised against knowing too much about the making of sausages and laws. Add journalism (particularly magazine journalism, in my experience) to that short list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Daniel Wexler

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2003, 12:37:50 PM »
Dan Kelly:

All done 100% without my knowledge.  I was never told, asked, informed, warned, etc.

A pretty talented scribe once told me that every writer's style evolves over time, but that nobody has the perspective to really "see" their own evolution.

I just did.

DW
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2003, 02:09:12 PM »
"These 162 holes of world-class golf are the products of some of the game's masters including Robert Trent Jones, Arthur Hills, Donald Ross and soon, Pete Dye."

I completely agree with Tom Doak -- the preceding passage stinks.

Although Mr. Doak has made it clear he's not a fan of replica holes and courses in general, I thought it was pretty clear that his olfactory senses were specifically offended by a golf course disingenuously implying that the late, great Donald Ross actually designed and built some of their holes, when in fact he didn't and couldn't have. That is despicable.

Having said that, I'm not offended by replica courses as long as they are clear about what they are not: original, or identical.

As Tom Huckaby mentioned early on in this thread, "Words can be quoted, exactly. Golf holes cannot.  There are certain elements that will always be missing."

And that being the case, I just don't see any reason why a golf club can't try to provide its patrons the faux experience of playing a famous hole or course, just as Pepsi can't be stopped from trying to provide a similar alternative to Coke, Harry Connick Jr. can't be stopped from borrowing Frank Sinatra's phrasing or Brian DePalma can't be prevented from paying homage to Alfred Hitchcock.

The real will always be distinguishable from the fake, as long as the fake is not allowed to call itself real.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2003, 02:09:45 PM »
Daniel Wexler,

I think it is a shame that your solid article on golf course architecture, appearing in LINKS magazine was diluted with non-golf related fill.

Shame on them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2003, 03:59:14 PM »
So much as the Golf Writing INdustry knows, the only way to get something entirely published as intended, is to be the editor yourself.

When I saw for the first time, what I thought was my best writing, or at least the heart of what I was trying to say, removed and others thoughts inserted, I was furious.  A friend, had emailed me the words of Dan Jenkin's opening passage from "You Gotta Play Hurt" where it describes of what he would like to do with the carraige of his typewriter, is one of the most classic wishful versus for any journalist who has experienced what I would call--CENSOR.

Yes, there is nip and tuck to make it fit, but just like, and in this case with Daniel's original article, it is criminal.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Replica courses article in Links Magazine
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2003, 05:51:46 PM »
I sure would like to see a replica course of ANGC as it was on opening day in the 30's. That would be way cool. I think I've found a mirror image of the original 16th here in NM. Substitute the verdant and replace it with rock and violia(sp?) it's has the creek and green site to die for.

Joe Hancock- I assumed most courses have the necc. equiptment already and also assume the marginal increase and decrease in the mowers work would be picked up by the other. So marginally it may take one guy longer but the ither less, no?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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