[ed_getka]

I was catching up on my Links reading when I noticed an article about this club. The author speaks of #6 on the Center 9 as being a 291 yd par 4 where a big number is possible. What design elements make this hole so challenging? Why would Nicklaus miss this green 4 days in a row in the Senior Open?
  Also, the West 9 #5 is characterized as the best hole on the property. Would you agree with that assessment? Is the green of #8 really a redan type?
   How does this course stack up with its neighbors? How has the renovation gone?
   

[Jimmy Muratt]

#6 on the Center 9 is really a terrific hole.  If you choose to play conservatively, you can hit a long iron off the tee and leave yourself with a wedge in.  The problem with the approach is that it's uphill to an extremely narrow and deep green and you can't see the putting surface.  The uphill nature of the approach and awkward shape of the green make depth perception an issue.  The green is also heavily bunkered, and getting up and down from one of these bunkers is not easy.  

If you choose the aggressive route off the tee and go for the green, you can bring all of the trouble around the green complex into play.  Knocking it on this small green from the tee is very difficult since it is all carry and uphill.  There is no way to run the ball on.  My last round there, I went for the green and knocked it into the front bunker, which is deep and cut into the steep hill.  I failed to get up and down and settled for par.

[NAF]

Ed-

You speak of the famed 5 and dime hole at Ridgewood.  While I've only snooped around and not played, it has the reputation as the best course in Bergen County NJ.  Although Matt Ward and I disagree, I reckon my course (Alpine) is behind it for #2.  As for the state, it would still be behind Plainfield and a few others in a ranking. My guess is it would be somewhere b/t 5 and #10 (no pun intended)

I believe they still have some tree issues there and the course still needs to be opened up. I've heard they tried to "catherdrialize" the trees by cutting the lower branches and just by leaving the upper ones.  Havent heard much more about the renovation job there.  The bunkering has obviously been made more Rees Jones ish.

[ed_getka]

Jimmy,
   How difficult is it to get your tee shot into position? If you were to hit 100 approach shots from your desired distance, how many do you think would end up on the green? What are the internal contours of the green like?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Ed,

If playing conservatively, getting your tee shot into position is easy.  You basically just need to hit a 200 yard shot to an open fairway.  The problem is with the approach.  It really is a difficult wedge shot.  The green is just so narrow and the way the green is set in the hillside, you have the deep bunkers short and to the right.  

For a good player, I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 approaches on the green would be a good result. The green isn't overly contoured but there is a decent sized ridge dividing the green which make putting difficult.  

It's really a great golf hole.

[Ted Kramer]

One the scorecard the hole is named "Scoonie", but like mentioned above, it is more commonly known as 5 and dime, because people tend to make 5's and 10's on the hole.

I was lucky enough to be invited for a round at Ridgewood this summer.I played an iron off the tee on this hole and had about 90 yards in. I missed the green, and made 5. There was no way to tell just how small that green was from the fairway. It is a very small target. I think it is the smallest green I have ever seen.

After playing the hole, I think I made the wrong decision.
If I ever get the chance to play there again, I would definitely hit driver off the tee and just try to hit it into one of the many greenside bunkers and try to make my par from there. A sandwedge into that green is far from an easy par.

5 and Dime is the best short par 4 I've ever seen or played. The only other short 4 that is even close in my estimation is #6 at Pac Dunes . . .I love #6 at Pac Dunes, but 5 and Dime gets my vote for #1!

-Ted

[PAW13]

Ed

Have not played Ridgewood in a few years.  But recall 5 Center very well.  As Jimmy points out the green is very narrow and anything over the green is dead.

I have a brother that was an assistant pro there for five years (1986-1990) and he used to fill me in on all the horror stories of that hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

I don't have the time now, but will get back to you.

# 5 green on the West nine doesn't remotely resemble a redan.  Whomever gave you that idea needs to see an eye doctor.   The green has multiple tiers and is very interesting.
The approach is guarded by two huge bunkers on both sides and a huge tree that invades the lines of play on the left side.

It's a most challenging hole, on the drive, approach, recovery and putt.

As to the 5 & 10 hole, one must walk the green single file.
It is a tiered green with the back elevated above the front and a general left to right slope.

I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 is high, as the fairway cants left to right making your stance and approach shot much more difficult then the yardage.  The green is above the golfer and invisible to the golfer.

Many players favor a line left of center on the approach, counting on the left hillside to kick the ball toward the putting surface.

There are several difficult hole locations.  Front, Back, just under the tier and just over the tier.

It's a neat little hole.

[Ted Kramer]

Ed,

. . .
I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 is high, as the fairway cants left to right making your stance and approach shot much more difficult then the yardage.  The green is above the golfer and invisible to the golfer.
. . .

I agree. I'd say 5 or 6 is more like it for a single digit handi.

-Ted

[ed_getka]

I don't get it. 5&10 is praised by you guys, but it sounds like it is seemingly impossible to play. Would you characterize it as penal or fun?
   Thanks for the feedback guys, I have a much better visual now.
   For those of you who have responded and know the hole, what would be your ideal plan of attack, assuming you could pull off exactly the shots you wanted? I presume pin position doesn't have much to do with it due to the green size.
    The info about the redan green- came from the LINKS writer, regarding West #5.

[Ted Kramer]

I think that the ideal play is driver into a greenside bunker, explosion shot, 1 or 2 putt.

If you lay up off the tee I'm telling you that hitting that green is not going to be easy.

A drive into the left section of the fairway allows for an aproach to be played into the green where it is longest front to back. A drive to the right half of the fairway makes the green more shallow and wider left to right.

There is a ridge dividing the green into to pretty distinct sections of front and back. I have to believe that hitting a 2nd shot from one of the green side bunkers to the correct section of the green would be much easier than doing so from 90 yards away, 40 feet below the green, without the ability to really "see what you're doing".

I suppose the hole is somewhat penal in nature.
But it would never occur to me to describe it as such.
I would describe it as "quirky" before "penal".
But I'll say this, I'd be more worried about that hole with money on the line than I would any other on Ridgewood CC's Center 9.
 
-Ted

[Jimmy Muratt]

Ed,

To me, the whole is a helluva lotta fun.  It is indeed difficult, yet fair.  It rewards good shots.  The margin for error on the approach is small but definitely doable.  

To make a 290 yard hole without water or major hazard turn into a knee knocker is testament to Tillinghast's great design.  

I have thought a lot about the tee shot strategy there and I agree with Ted that hitting driver somewhere around the green is my preferred way to play the hole.  I would rather have a bunker shot or greenside pitch than a full wedge to that green.  

The only green similar in size that I have played is #9 at Myopia Hunt Club.  The main difference is that your approach at #6 Ridgewood is uphill and blind.  You really don't realize how small the target is until you get up there.  It's the type of hole that is more intimidating the more you play it.  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

The Ridgewood CC in Paramus, NJ has a long and storied history. A former head professional -- George Jacobus -- was President of the PGA in the 30's and was the key person responsible in getting the club to host the '35 Ryder Cup which featured Hagen and Sarazen.

Byron Nelson also had an association with the club as an assistant professional and I believe he won the '36 MGA Open at Quaker Ridge.

In 1974 the club hosted the U.S. Amateur won by Jerry Pate. The field was quite strong and included the likes of Curtis Strange (lost in the semi's), Bill Campbell, Andy Bean, Gary Koch, George Burns and a few others of note. As a 17-year-old I enjoyed the event immensely because you could get so close to the action.

The LPGA has also visited Ridgewood and in the Coca Cola Classic the vistory went to the legendary Kathy Whitworth in a playoff triumph.

In 1990 the club hosted another national championship -- the U.S. Senior Open won by Lee Trevino. The club was smart enough to get the event knowing that it would be the first Sr. Open Jack Nicklaus was eligible for.

In 2001 the club served as the site for the PGA Seniors -- the first time since 1981 that the event had been played away from PGA National in Florida. Tom Watson bagged the title in an exciting duel down the stretch with Jim Thorpe.

Ed -- the 5th hole on the Center Nine plays roughly at 290 yards and is uphill. The hole turns slightly to the right and the green is extremely small. Hit the tee shot too far right and the pitch is a tough one to handle. Go too far left and the fall-away green is a demanding challenge from a most exacting lie and stance. Most players in the 90's Sr. Open and the '01 Sr. PGA opted to hit irons and leave themselves anywhere from 75-100 yards into the target.

The hole is very fair because it's THAT exacting. In regards to the other great short par-4's in the state I would say it belongs on the first page of note. I would still place such holes as the 8th at PV and the 4th / 10th at Plainfield, to name just two ahead of it.

The 5th on the West is a grand hole but I think a solid case can be made that the 9th on the West (about 430 yards) and the 7th on the East (460 yards) are also worthy candidates. In fact, you can make a good case that the 5th on the East is also a solid hole that is difficult to par.

Ed -- in regards to ratings -- the club sustained a drop in both the Golf Digest poll to 14th and in Jersey Golfer to 11th. Much of that had to do with the fallout from the aftermath of the work carried forward by Rees Jones. That has since changed and the club is quickly moving ahead in getting rid of additional trees and other issues that have caused such a drop in its overall standing.

In my own reckoning of Jersey courses Ridgewood's East & West nines (there is a Center Nine too) would certainly be in the 5-7 range, but I would need to see all the finished work (tree removal, green enlargements, bunker restoration, etc, etc) before saying that with certainty. Without question -- it is the #1 course in all of Bergen County -- sorry Noel!

P.S. Ed -- if you really want to see a "unique" and "quirky" type short par-4 go visit the Naffer's 10th at Alpine. It makes the 5th at Ridgewood's Center Nine look positively matter-of-fact!

[Mike_Cirba]

The 10th at Alpine is almost unique and even Tilinghast didn't like it.  It's a par four 3 or 20 hole.

Personally, I loved it and wouldn't change a thing, even though it breaks every design rule I hold dear.

[ed_getka]

Assuming the writer got it wrong, is there a par 5 at Ridgewood that has a redan style green?
  What did Rees do that caused such a drop? I saw Lake Merced CC before and after his work out here in my neck of the woods. Although it wasn't much better in my book, it certainly wasn't worse. Was the work at Ridgewood what the "committee" wanted or what Rees thought was best? I wonder why the article didn't say Rees was involved? It sounded like it was an in-house project being done by the super, starting back in 2001.
 
    Now on to Alpine. What rules does it break Mike?

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

The bunker concept / style didn't match up. Ed, the other issue central to the "fall" of Ridgewood (ratings wise that is) are the cluster of trees that have served as a dominant ingredient for quite some time. I toured the course with the superintendent not very long ago and it's clear that a "new" Ridgewood is certainly emerging where the trees, green enlargements to past times and the bunker style / presentations are beyond what was there. The club is to be congratulated for making such a bold move in returning to the qualities that have always made Ridgewood a "must play" when you come to New Jersey.

I can't recall any par-5 green at Ridgewood being a redan.

Ed -- Mike can speak for himself regarding the "rules" for the 10th at Alpine but one that comes to mind is the severe nature of an uphill hole. You can get whiplash by just forcing your neck "up" to see where the green is when standing on the tee!

[ed_getka]

Noel,
  Is it more uphill than #1 at Painswick? BTW, congrats on your recent nuptials.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ed;

It (Alpine #10) primarily breaks the rule that forests shouldn't impinge on what was intended to be fairway.  It also breaks the rule about holes going straight up a severe hill.  It also breaks the rule of greens where there is probably only one (maybe two) pinnnable spot.  It breaks the rule where a ball could catch a tree and roll backwards 50 or more yards (don't ask me how I know).  You could also easily chip or putt off the green.  

As far as Ridgewood, the bunkers looked like Rees Jones bunkers instead of AW Tillinghast bunkers, similar to what happened at Quaker Ridge and others.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

The 8th west could remotely be viewed as a redan green because of the high right ground fronting and into the green, and the angle of attack. but, that's really a stretch.

As to the play of the hole, you DON"T want to drive it into a bunker.

Driving it in the fairway and leaving a Lob-Wedge or Sand Wedge approach is prudent.  Extending the drive a little further into the fronting rough is okay if you know the hole is cut in the back of the green.

Ridgewood is vastly UNDERRATED.

Few ever play the back tees because most are not apparent to the golfer and don't have markers on them, like the 4th west and 7th west.

I find the East-West course my favorite, but the center nine is a nice challenge as well.

The club holds a putting contest on a very unusual practice putting green that will test the best of players.

Some fairways were narrowed and not returned to their original widtth, like # 7 west.

I think Ridgewood may have the best set of AWT par 5's anywhere.

It can be fun and it can be very challenging.
It depends on how much you care to bite off, and how difficult they want to cut the cups.

If you head east in the summer I'll get you on the course.
You shouldn't miss it.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   Why not drive into the bunker if you have enough length to get there? It seems like a much more likely par than coming in with a wedge, particularly for someone who is proficient out of the sand.
     What makes the par 5's so good in your opinion? Would you collectively place them above the set at Plainfield?
   Thanks for the feedback guys. I guess the LINKS guy doesn't know what he is talking about, since nobody recalls a par 5 with a redan type green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

Why not drive into the bunker if you have enough length to get there?

Because of the uncertainty of the lie, AND the fact that if you drive it in the bunker you're left with a very difficult bunker shot to a green that sits far, far above you.

You can leave your approach in the bunker, on the side of the steep hill or go long and have an impossible recovery from above the green.

It's far from your typical greenside bunker shot.

As to the par 5's, I think they're all true, real deal par 5's with the exception of # 4 center which is probably a 4.5 par 5, but an interesting hole in its own right.

# 4 and # 8 west are sensational as is # 2 center and # 3 East, with and incredible three tiered green sitting at a 30-45 degree angle, high right to low left, approached from a fairway that cants right to left.  Both # 4 west and # 3 East have their version of HHA in the form of mounds mowed to rough height.

The approach shots into each par 5 green are vastly different in that the green surrounds are vastly different, and, once on the green, the putting surfaces have good internal movement with the exception of # 4 center.

Out of bounds, in different locations, exists on # 3 East, # 4 and # 8 West and # 4 Center, adding to the challenge.[/color]

It seems like a much more likely par than coming in with a wedge, particularly for someone who is proficient out of the sand.

You'll have to see it to judge for yourself[/color]

What makes the par 5's so good in your opinion? Would you collectively place them above the set at Plainfield?
It's a difficult comparison due to the 27 hole nature of Ridgewood, and only Five par 5's.  The east course only has one par 5, the 3rd hole.  But, I'd say they're comparable.[/color]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I guess the LINKS guy doesn't know what he is talking about, since nobody recalls a par 5 with a redan type green.

There is no green at Ridgewood that remotely resembles a redan.  Perhaps he meant that an approach shot hit long on
# 9 west could hit a sedan.[/color]

[Jay Cox]

Perhaps he meant that an approach shot hit long on
# 9 west could hit a sedan.

LMAO  

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

The four par-5's at Plainfield collectively are arguably the best in New Jersey -- clearly PV only has two among its 18 holes.

The 12th alone at Plainfield is one of the best par-5's period in the USA IMHO.

Getting back to the thread topic -- Ridgewood is making all the right moves now in bringing back to life all the elements that made it so special.

Wait very shortly and the results will be there for all to see.

[ed_getka]

Funny guy . Happy holidays.

[ed_getka]

Doh! The redan-like green is on #8, "where balls must be played out to the right in order to funnel down to a left hole location". My bad about the hole # .

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