Feature Interview with Bob Cupp is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

...under the Architecture Timeline and Feature Interview sections of this site.

Bob Cupp means a lot of different things to different people. Some closely tie him to Jack Nicklaus and other 'name' architects while others associate him more with his own designs. Personally, I remember being a huge fan of the New Course at Indianwood which he did with Jerry Pate when I saw it in 1988. Like the Old,  it was essentially treeless and I remember thinking how much more invigorating the game was in such an environment than the typical tree-lined course. Many 'links-like' courses have since been built in the U.S. but this was one of the very first in the modern era (or at least I can't think of many before it??). Like at Strantz's Tobacco Road, an architect took a bunch of chances and 90% plus of them paid off most handsomely in a completely unique and different design.

Another first hand observation came at Bear Creek in Southern California where Cupp was apart of the Nicklaus team. In short, those greens as a set have to be among the more wild/fun/engaging set built in the past 30 years and everyone associated with that project should be justly proud.

One of the stated purposes in starting this web site was to give architects the platform to speak their mind without fear of being edited. And Bob, much to his credit, has taken advantage by answering the questions with detailed explanations on why he thinks this and that. He goes on a well justified rant as to why the game has become so ludicrously expensive and why therefore people are being driven away from the game. Bob is SPOT-ON when he says the future health of the game lies in affordable golf and it is an honor for GolfClubAtlas to be the platform for such a well thought out perspective. Other gems within his Feature Interview include the concept of stance as a hazard and studying the flight characteristics of the ball.

Hope you enjoy this month's FI!

Cheers,

Ran

PS Many thanks to John Vander Borght, a long time friend of this site, for helping to arrange and coordinate this month's Feature Interview.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Excellent interview Ran.  It's great to hear Bob's thoughts on the new high priced private clubs, especially in light of all of those being built these days......


"With regard to exclusivity, there is a place for elite courses, but they are far fewer in number than we have been building. There will always be a need for privacy, and, at the end of the day, so nobody thinks I am against exclusivity, it is a very healthy and necessary part of our society. There are places you just can't get on unless you play with a member, and in my book, that is as it should be.

The problems arise when the marketers sell on the basis that some golf course in some nondescript place is indeed exclusive because it is expensive. Folks, exclusivity is earned, not purchased. If the golf course is worth its salt, it will flourish if properly handled."

[George Pazin]

Very thoughtful responses - thank you Mr. Cupp.

2 quotes I found very interesting:

The only things I might add is that the stance is definitely a hazard, and hazards have degrees of difficulty. Like art, there is seldom anything that it solid black and white. And not only is the slope important from where the shot is struck. It is, in fact, even more important at the target itself. The slope of a putting surface can and does affect the shape of the incoming shot. If the green slopes to the left, the shot required is best a fade and vice-versa. If the shot from the fairway is a fade lie (feet above the ball) to a green which slopes to the right (a draw), the player is faced with a greater challenge.

This is very compelling, and I think ties in very well with the notion of "indirect tax" type penalties, which is all too often overlooked by most golfers, IMHO. This type of hazard is not obvious, and if the golfer executes the shot, he himself may not even realize he had been indirectly penalized. Only through repeated plays is this type of hazard apparent.

I would rather hear the stories about the courses than see them. Have you read Mark Frost's 'The Greatest Game Ever Played', about Brookline (which I have played on numerous occasions). The book is about Harry Vardon and Ted Ray touring America and finally competing in the US Open, and had their heads handed to them by some young kid who lived across the street from the club named Francis Ouimet. I would suggest that reading about courses is far more important than playing them. First of all, no one is omniscient after one trip around a great course. A great course requires years to really understand.(emphasis added). Isn't it more about 'look what I did!' than truly coming to grips with why any course has withstood the test of time?

This must be sending some of our posters into near hysterics!

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Interesting interview.

While working at Druid Hills were you able to uncover or learn anything about its golf architect Herbert Barker?

[JohnV]

I want to thank Bob for doing the interview.  I had a wonderful time playing golf with him at Druid Hills and he was nice enough to follow up with this interview.

One question that occurred to me recently was:

Given the work you did at Oakhurst Links, other than the obvious issues of length and width, do you think that golf architecture would be different if we still played with gutties and hickory shaft clubs?

[Mark Brown]

Ran,

Great interviewe with Bob Cupp who I have always felt was very artistic (now I know why) and under-rated. I just talked to him on Friday and hope to see him in Savannah or Hilton Head this week. I' m still not real fond of his geometric design at Palmetto Hall, but he has put a lot of thought into his work and is far more intelligent and knowledgeable than most of us.

I think he's right about the ability of Jerry Pate also, and he's fun to talk to because unlike most celebrities he listens to what you are saying. I had a long conversation with him about the factors of time, affordability and the growth of the game.

In June I started a new company called Prestwick 12 Golf with Terry LaGree (former COO at Black Diamond Ranch) who has a golf course construction co. in centra FL. We want to build 1, 2 (for 12 holes) or 3 six hole loops with a good learning and practice facility to address the problems above and bring in new players and occasional golfers, although I think our market will be broad.

We can build 12 holes, a modest clubhouse and a maintenance facility for $4 million, or less, not including the land which we want home developers to donate. I think we can keep green fees down to about $15 to $30 dollars depending on the site and the location.

Thanks for creating and maintaining the GCA website, and hope to talk to you sometime.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Too bad there was no mention of Cupp's current project at Liberty National in NY. This course will certainly get mucho publicity when it opens. See pics at Cary's post re NY island course.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You raise a good point about Liberty National.

Given Bob's stated belief for accessible and affordable golf I wonder what his comments would be on what is being built in Hudson County (NJ) and the associated costs of this mega private club?

Be quite interesting to see how Liberty National fares against Bayonne Golf Club -- the work of Eric Bergstol.

Either way -- it's a great plus for the deep-pocketed Wall Street crowd that will likely form the majority of the membership at both clubs.

[Forrest Richardson]

Good interview, Ran. For anyone who's had the pelasure of meeting Bob, his honesty and directness comes through, but I wish there was audio to go with the printed/digital words! Bob is known for telling it like it is, politically correct or not.

[ian]

We got to work on a project called Goodwood (property was sold to another developer who did the project with Fazio) with Bob where he routed the golf course with Doug. He invited Cam and I to help create a theme, which we ended up with Raynor for one and a wasteland approach for the other 18. The most interesting part was the strategy sit down, we developed each hole together by bouncing ideas back and forth. He is very open to ideas and was really forward with his own process for creating holes. He is a very strong believer in making sure the lengths and directions are very well balanced and the routing got adjusted twice to fix this.

He is a man who approaches the game as a careful tactician. The slopes that he mentions in stance and greens were the two things that he is very insistant upon.

For all you purists, there were fall away greens and he also loves the redan (which was on the one course).

As you can see by his interview, like or hate his style, he difinately is a well thought out architect. He reminds me of Flynn in the way he approaches challenging a player to think his way around the course.

[Jfaspen]

A very good interview.  I have had the pleasure of playing the new course at indianwood twice.  Very difficult design, but at the same time very fun to play.  

jf

[TEPaul]

Bob Cupp said:

"But, at the risk of 'over verbalization', strategic design is not the totality of my design philosophy. There are two other issues, aesthetics and turf (and they are totally different subjects as well - as different as a harp is to a fire hydrant). I assign something akin to fifty percent of my attention to Strategy. However, players who understand golf shots are not always well versed in matters of color, texture, shadow, composition and the like. How a course looks  is basically a subject from a different planet than that of strategic concepts. Strategy is the way a course feels  when played. Aesthetics is straightforward visual - it is what you see. With my education, I cannot help but be attentive to this, and, it is crucial that this be a primary concern because, as I mentioned, there are so many who don't really care about strategy (though I agree with Balfour). A golf course is, in fact, a giant sculpture, and I would be remiss in not admitting that carving in this grand scale as an artist is a great thrill. There are so many things to say about this, but I fear for the length of this thing. So I will leave it that aesthetics are a far more cranial issue than strategy, which tends to be more pure. It is not black and white surely, but the shades of grey are certainly more definable."

Bob:

You don't need to worry about 'over-verbalization' on the discussion group section here---that's what some of us are good at!

I'd sure be interested in knowing more about your philosophies on "aesthetics" and this idea of a golf course being a 'giant sculpture'. Generally speaking what do you feel that "giant sculpture should look like? In other words how much latitude do you think an architect should use in the look of that giant sculpture? How much do you think it should conform (or not) to the basic lines and forms that are there before the architect begins to "sculpt'? All that the golfer can see, in other words---even if it may be off the actual property.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom — Little did I know that you have amassed 15,000 posts. My God! I, too, would like to know more about Bob's sculpture reference. Of course, what differentiates golf courses as sculptures is that they are kinetic — and living. So we are left with more of a hybrid, not "just" a sculptural work.

[Michael Moore]

"First of all, it's ridiculous to compare Pebble with Pine Valley or Augusta. What's to compare? Pine Valley and Augusta are antithetical. It makes no sense to say one is better than the other when it really doesn't matter."

Amen, brother Cupp.

That is a tremendous interview.

Is Cupp going to come on here and respond to his fans? If so, what does it mean for a bunker to be an invitation?

[TEPaul]

"Of course, what differentiates golf courses as sculptures is that they are kinetic —"

Forrest:

Please try not to use big words and concepts like that until at least 9 or 10 pm when I've had a chance to have a few glasses of wine and I can start to get in motion myself and feel At-One-Ment enough with concepts like that to be able to understand them better!

[TEPaul]

""First of all, it's ridiculous to compare Pebble with Pine Valley or Augusta. What's to compare? Pine Valley and Augusta are antithetical. It makes no sense to say one is better than the other when it really doesn't matter."

Michael Moore said;

'Amen, brother Cupp.'

I say Amen, Brother Cupp and Amen, Brother Moore. That remark might be one of the best all time "anti-rating and ranking" remarks ever. That philosophy, and coming from a thoughtful and artistic golf architect, is also one of the best "Anti-Matt Ward" remarks I ever heard too, and of course I completlly endorse that as well!  

I can just hear Matt Ward's response now which will probably start with;

"You all need to wake up and smell the coffee, and get out there and play......."

[George Pazin]

...what does it mean for a bunker to be an invitation?

I took this to mean that a bunker should be placed in a tempting area, where a golfer accepting the invitation successfully would receive a reward in terms of better angle/stance/view, etc.

[TEPaul]

George:

Absolutely. It probably would've been closer to what he meant if he'd just said a bunker should be a "temptation" or even a "seduction".

Personally, I think I might be somewhat less able to resist serious seduction than serious temptation!   But then I don't completely subscribe to Oscar Wilde's cliche "I can resist anything except temptation."

On the other hand, although some really cool bunker in a great place might seduce me I don't think I'd anthropomorphize it into some super sexy beautiful women quite the way Pat Mucci does!

Pat may be somewhat akin to Arnold Palmer that way. I heard that someone asked Arnold if he ever didn't think about sex and Arnold shot back--"Absolutely Never!"

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran,
Thanks for this and all the interviews.

Bob Cupp mentioned the need for more affordable golf but.... more than half (9,977) of the existing golf courses in the US charge less than $30.00 and over one third (6,500) charge less than $20.00, numbers he suggested would help participation rates.

Is cost really an issue?


 

[Lou_Duran]

Sounds like Bob Cupp is a true GCAer.  Bob designed a course developed by a friend of mine, and this guy just can't say enough good things about the architect.

I've played several Cupp courses, and they have all been difficult, but highly entertaining.  Two of his courses, Hawk's Ridge north of Atlanta, and Beacon Hall, north of Toronto, are among my favorites.  Both are demanding, full of strategic options, scenic, and very well conditioned relative to their design.

I am unaware of Bob's work in the affordable and highly-playable categories.  This is not meant as criticism at all, but what I've mostly seen of his is higher end, fairly expensive (to build and maintain), and geared toward the better player.  I hope that he does get the opportunity to build what he believes is needed for the game to prosper.

Jim Kennedy:

Where did you get these figures?

Perhaps the numbers are skewed and includes all sorts of facilities such as nine hole, par 3, and executive courses.  I suspect that most of these courses are in low population areas, where they can't command a higher green fee and demand is a real problem.

Most of the CCFAD in the Dallas area are having a hard time, yet Mansfield National in the $20 - $30 range is doing 60,000+ rounds.  Some argue that there is a glut of courses here.  Lower the prices to around $25 and I have no doubt that demand would go through the roof.  What I am saying is that where there are concentration of people, price elasticity is alive and well, and what Mr. Cupp suggests for the betterment of the game- affordable golf- works.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lou,
The figures come from a search of a GC database.
Within a 25 mile radius of Dallas there are 19 courses(18) under $30. There are 31 if you add in the 9's.

There are 36 9's & 18's within 25 mis. of Philadelphia and 16 within this same margin around San Francisco.

I think Bob Cupp was identifying the fact that most new courses being built have all the bells and whistles, like the CCFAD's, and all those toys have big price tags which drive up the cost to the consumer, never mind that they all want to be 7,500 yds. It's rare to see interesting courses built on modest budgets, like the one PB Dye built in Indiana for under 1.5 mil or the one Ken Kavanaugh built, that was recently talked about here, for around 2 mil.

There are many reasonably priced options available today if you take the time to look for them.