Fat Baldy Drummer - More Euros Please

[Mike_Sweeney]

Yesterday, I had the pleasure of speaking with Michael Wharton Palmer during his technical difficulties  . Between the multiple posting of "x's", we naturally talked about golf courses. As may be expected from some of his post, his love for Merion really came out, and his indifference for some of his homeland courses was intriging to me as Ran has convinced me/us that England is the capital of GCA-type golf! One of Michael's favorite links courses is Western Gailes, a course that is rarely spoken about here.

So the question is how do attract more Europeans to GCA, who IMHO add so much to the treehouse? What ever happened to Stovepipe?

[Jack_Marr]

...first thing to do is impeach George W...

And some English people might object to being called euros!

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike,
I think it's a case of the old 'Familiarity breeds Contempt' syndrome or, at the very least, utter indifference to the subject on the part of the general public. Us Brits have never really gotten quite so 'het-up' on golf architecture as you guys probably because it has been practically ubiquitous for so long and in so many places now.

Also, there has never really been any 'Course-bagging' here as, historically, guys simply played almost all of their Golf either at their home course or at other local courses in matches.

The idea of the 'Celebrity Architect' hasn't even really begun to take-off here (maybe discounting the relatively recent success for David Kidd and maybe Kyle Phillips who are beginning to 'go mainstream' and become more known to the great unwashed).

My guess is that with increasing coverage of 'Who-designed-such-and-such-a-new-course' in the Golf Press this side of the Pond, Joe Public will be given the opportunity to develop more of an interest.

Re Andy Stovey - Bit of a story there which others might wish to chat over personally with you...

FBD.

PS Isn't it about time you started packing???

[ForkaB]

Mike

As a Euro by marriage and current residence, let me confirm what FBD said.  Very few players over here know or care who designed various golf courses, even (maybe even particularly) the "better" golfers.  Most people also don't even know (or care) who their great grandfather was and are as bemused at Americans coming over to search their genealogy as are greenkeepers when GCAers ask them which architect(s) designed their course.

I'm not sure it's as much "familiarity breeds contempt" as "vive la difference!"  After all, few Americans really think that spending your summer vacation in Orlando is particularly sophisticated or wise, nor do we think that "proper" football is a game played by little men in white shorts named Paolo and Nigel and Gunther which involves a lot of prancing around on the field and diving when somebody so much as touches you and has about as much scoring as your average nursing home on a Tuesday night when Lawrence Welk re-runs are on........

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have to agree that there is very little interest in golf course architecture in the UK apart from courses apparently designed by Nicklaus, Norman or Faldo.  I wonder if those of you who have written books about golf course architecture have sold many copies in the UK?  A glance at the golf shelf (unlikely to be more) of any bookseller's will reveal a number of biographies, any number of how-to-do-it books, one or two guide books such as AA or Times and only very rarely anything about courses themselves and architecture in particular.  The proportions are similar in the golfing magazines (apart from the annual Golf Monthly/Golf World rankings) with equipment and tuition dominating, a little golf reporting and a little golf tourism.  

A few years ago I was chatting with the Secretary of an Abercromby course (not Addington) and I suggested to her that they might get in touch with the other Aber courses (there aren't many) with a view to their playing the occasional inter-club tournament as some of the Mackenzie clubs do.  She didn't show the slightest interest.  Mackenzie, of course, is a name associated with a kind of green, not a golf course.

Also a few years ago I got involved in a book by Gary Player, actually written by two South African golf journalists.  They consistently referred to Robert Tyre Jones as Robert Trent Jones when writing about ANGC.  At least they'd heard of an architect even if they hadn't heard of the greatest amateur of them all!

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Is the most successful golf course book in the UK, Steel's links book?

It appears to be.  And confirms one fact to me: if you're going to sell an expensive, golf course book to the average punter, you must have great photography.

[ForkaB]

Steel's also one of the best and most knowledgable writers around, which helps.  And, I'd bet that the North American market accounts for most of his sales.  Speaking of which, Mark--what's the NA/Euro split for WAG?

[Jack_Marr]

Yeah - I would agree that the Irish attitude would be similar - play the course, and if it's good, well that's enough. Over-analysis is something we confine to politics, women and drink.

[Bob_Huntley]

designed their course.

I'm not sure it's as much "familiarity breeds contempt" as "vive la difference!"  After all, few Americans really think that spending your summer vacation in Orlando is particularly sophisticated or wise, nor do we think that "proper" football is a game played by little men in white shorts named Paolo and Nigel and Gunther which involves a lot of prancing around on the field and diving when somebody so much as touches you and has about as much scoring as your average nursing home on a Tuesday night when Lawrence Welk re-runs are on........

Rihc,

Why is it Americans of stunted growth, who have no possibility of playing top class football or basketball, belittle the game of real football (socccer to the unwashed)?

To have seven foot freaks running around putting a ball into a hoop ten feet off the floor seems a relatively easy task. Put the basket three feet high and let the buggers bend over and see how they do. As for three hundred and twenty pounders with their guts bulging out as though they are pregnant, is not a pretty sight; as for running ten yards without gasping for air, forget it.

Go anywhere in the world and you will see kids playing football, a couple of coats on the ground for a goal, no adults, refereed by the kids themselves. Is there anything more ludicrous that the organized games of Little League with ranting parents or seeing young children dressed up like NFL players with full regalia?

The beauty of the game is that ORDINARY folks can play it into adulthood. Yeading, a village team with a population of less than three thousand, will play Newcastle United in the third round of the FA Cup. This is rather like Carmel playing the
Los Angeles Dodgers.


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[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Bob,
That was the first non-golf related post of 2004, which was worth reading.

[ForkaB]

THWOCK!

Sorry, just had to pull my tongue out of my cheek.....

[Jack_Marr]

Sean
I'm just a lazy typer. Indeed, footballer is another subject that will get Europeans talking.

And football (soccer) is the greatest game on earth - FACT. Watching Maradona play could not be matched by watching any other sport.

Rhonaldino is another one. While everyone was getting warmed up and tuned in to the Real Madrid vs Barcelona match, he was doing a samba in the tunnel. He went on to dance aroudn the Real team on the pitch too.

If you were 8' 10" and could stand up, you'd be the best basketballer in the world. American football requires a stoppage every 5 seconds so the coaches can tell the players what to do.

[Bob_Huntley]

Ben,

Thank you.

I shall now go after Sean about cricket. He was right about Rugby. I went to a school where Rugby was de rigeur but football was always a better game. I am reminded of the old adage. "Rugby is a ruffians game played by gentlemen, whereas Football is a gentlemen's game played by ruffians."

In England it was a class thing, as it was in Colonial Africa. Whites played Rugby, Blacks played football.

[Jack_Marr]

Jack

We all know that hockey is the supreme game of skill, violence and speed.  Though it must be said that I do have a fondness for rugby, union that is.  Especially the way the Irish national side play.  They nearly always find a way to be competitive.  Imagine if American football actually had the ball in play for more than 7 minutes a game.  No one can imagine it, can you?

As for cricket, well, nuff said.

Ciao

Sean

Sean, you'd love hurling. They hit eachother with picaxe handles yet nobody goes down. They are genuinely as hard as nails.

I am also a rugby fan and love watching Munster and Leinster. I had to give it up early as I tore both my cruciate ligaments and had to have my knees reconstructed.

I would like to like cricket, but I just can't.

[George Pazin]

Why isn't there more appreciation for real football? It is too damn tiring!

Mass genocide is the most exhausting activity known to mankind, next to soccer.

Matt Damon, in Dogma

I have always found it curious, because in our area there is a tremendous emphasis on youth soccer (sorry). I'd guess the numbers comparison between soccer and baseball among youth have to be pretty close. Yet it doesn't ever seem to carry over.

As to more European participation, what is the penetration of the internet like? I was under the impression it is really pretty expensive, but I haven't had the pleasure of venturing abroad in a long time. I've never really believed in generalizing about people's interests, preferences, etc. I think the proportion of golfers abroad who are interested in architecture is probably pretty similar to the proportion in the US - miniscule!

I'm just thankful for what we have.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

None of this rubbishing of Rugby!  Since the various modifications of the rules they have turned it into a pretty good game to watch, generally far better than football (with a few exceptions).  Look at the financial value of Real Madrid, its latent talent and then look at its underachievement.  Look at the financial value of most top level European rugby clubs, look at the excitement and entertainment they offer and I know which offers the better value.

But we've digressed from golf.  If we know so little about golf architecture, why do the Europeans keep winning the Ryder Cup?

[Brian_Ewen]

"""So the question is how do attract more Europeans to GCA, who IMHO add so much to the treehouse? "" .

Mike
I have many many friends who discuss golf course architecture after rounds of golf here in Scotland , and I have found many strangers around the world willing to discuss the merits of golf holes with me , and I have pointed them all in the direction of this website , and I get two replies back .

"Too Dry" .

"Its only for Americans" .

And in some ways I do agree with the second one . Over the last few years I have seen many people take the time and effort to post about courses outwith the USA (myself included) , and they are lucky if they get two replies . Yet some courses in the USA are discussed over several pages on a Weekly , Monthly and Yearly basis .

Honestly I reckon if you want more Europeans (and the Rest of the World when it comes to it ) to contribute on this website , then the regular posters here will have to open up first and be willing to discuss courses outwith America.

Isnt that what an Atlas should be ? .

IMHO
Brian

[Philip Gawith]

amen to brian ewen's comments. i have had the same experience and it can be discouraging. At its worst, GCA can give the impression of being a small group of people, mostly stateside, talking to each other, with interventions from strangers ignored, tolerated or occasionally indulged. Fortunately there is much else to savour!

[ForkaB]

Brian

Good points.

The site is (but needn't be) far too dry and provincial.  Esoteric, humorless, sophomoric and intimidating also often come to mind.  I wonder what Europeans think about our "discussions" of Sandpines or Pine Valley or Rustic Canyon or NGLA or Sand Hills?  I also wonder why some of the best and most informative threads on this site (i.e. those by people like yourself, Mark R and Paul T about European courses), elicit so few comments.

Is GCA about the individual and collective knowledge of golf course architecture, or does it now have much more to do with camaraderie, self-promotion and access?  Nothing wroing with that, but.......

......if you are a European who has access to virtually all of the great courses at his or her doorstep, doesn't really care about (or can see any value in) promoting oneself as either a designer or a character, and enjoys camaraderie, but with a much more self-deprecating and much less USA-centric ambience.....

...is there any wonder that take up of this site in Eurpoe is so sluggish?

Not to me.  It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Philip Gawith]

amen to you too rich! a very appropriate selection of adjectives in par two. i trust that this outbreak of euro-solidarity means i can soon anticipate sympathy responses to my "jack and ernie go to africa" post which achieved oblivion in record time!

[T_MacWood]

I won't pretend to say I know how Europeans think. But my geuss is, there are a similar percentage over there that would be as interested in this subject, if.... There are a lot of N.Americans who could care less as well. I don't think they wired any differently in Europe, interest in history and the finer things in life are not confined to N.America.

On a historical note, IMO the British were well ahead of the American's in exploring and discussing the art of golf architecture in the 20's and 30's...thanks largley to the efforts of men like Bernard Darwin and Charles Ambrose.

Personally I believe interest in GA in America is realtively weak as well...wouldn't interest grow if a higher volume media outlets (magazines and TV) focused more on the subject? The two major golf magazines write less on golf architecture today, than they did a decade ago.

[Andy Hughes]

"Its only for Americans" .

Brian, I should point out that there is a quiet group on this site who absolutely adore the pics and commentary about European or Australian courses. For example, Mark Rowlinson's ongoing series is perhaps my very favorite part of this site many weeks.  

[THuckaby2]

Gentlemen, please.

How can any of you wonder why "some of the best and most informative threads on this site (i.e. those by people like yourself, Mark R and Paul T about European courses), elicit so few comments"

Of course these topics are great.  But what is one supposed to say about a course he's never seen and is bloody likely never to see?  Just as those in the UK can't or won't post much about a place like Rustic Canyon, a guy like me can't or won't post much about Alwoodley or whatever... what can I possibly say beyond "sounds great, hope to see it some day"?

So yes this site is American-dominated.  And changing that would be great - then there would be more people who've actually seen or heard of or read about the UK places discussed, and the discussion of them would be richer and better.

But until that happens, well... one can really only give meaningful input into courses he knows something about.

TH


ps - count me among Andy's "quiet group"... but the point is what can we say besides "thanks, love it"?  How can those possibly get many replies and meaningful discussion until the courses get seen and played?

[George Pazin]

I also agree with Andy & Tom H - I've even stopped saying thanks and Mark R & Paul Turner's fantastic threads simply because I don't feel like I can offer much else and the thanks are starting to look hollow. But these threads are much appreciated.

Furthermore, the phenomenon of starting threads with few responses is not at all confined to European courses. I've started many threads about new courses that I've played that have only received a couple responses by the few people that have played them. Like Huck said, how much can one say if he hasn't played the course in question? The reason we tend to rehash courses is because those are the few courses that many have played, not because we enjoy saying the same thing over and over again.

All you can do is keep plugging away and hope that eventually we reach a critical mass where enough people have played the courses in question so that we can have more fruitful discussions.

[THuckaby2]

I also agree with Andy & Tom H - I've even stopped saying thanks and Mark R & Paul Turner's fantastic threads simply because I don't feel like I can offer much else and the thanks are starting to look hollow. But these threads are much appreciated.

Furthermore, the phenomenon of starting threads with few responses is not at all confined to European courses. I've started many threads about new courses that I've played that have only received a couple responses by the few people that have played them. Like Huck said, how much can one say if he hasn't played the course in question? The reason we tend to rehash courses is because those are the few courses that many have played, not because we enjoy saying the same thing over and over again.

All you can do is keep plugging away and hope that eventually we reach a critical mass where enough people have played the courses in question so that we can have more fruitful discussions.

Right on, brother.  Not much we can do until the critical mass is reached.

TH