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Forrest Richardson

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2004, 06:30:33 AM »
The creek is 230 if ypu play all the way back. It's 210 if you play from the regular markers. From our experience observing, the average of players is hitting:

180  4-Iron
210  3-wood
130  7-Iron*
_____

520

This is right in line with how we felt the hole would play.

The course is also at 7,000-ft, which will add 10%+ to length for any golfer.

*And...the hole is slightly uphill, which combined with the mayhem which can happen with the tee lay-up and the second fairway wood, most often leads to a third shot of longer length than a 7- or 8-iron can muster.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2004, 09:03:15 AM »
In the back of their book Cornish and Whitten list a few 'design experiment' that simply weren't successful. One of them listed is the required short iron from tees on dogleg par par 4s and 5s and extremely sharp doglegs etc.

In my opinion, when Flynn designed and built it #2 "C" nine HVGC he probably had a higher risk option of driving left across the creek or hazard area that's practically in-line on the left down the line of of drive (certainly not a good or multi-optional arrangement if the option over the creek has been shut off by trees or something else that makes that higher risk option non-functional).

We believe, though, that the entire idea of "shot-testing" that appears to have been so much more prevalent in the old days of SOME architecture vs today should be better explored and better understood---not that that will make it better appreciated today, however.

What was that old fashioned architectural philosophy of "shot-testing" and what were some of it's conceptual arrangements?

Well, a hole with like PVGC's #7 was certainly one of them and believe it or not so was PVGC's #18. I'm talking here about the intended shot values of the best executed shots of a particular strategy. When PVGC was designed the stategic shot values for even a very good player on #7 was his best drive and his best brassie to safely clear HHA in two and on #18 it was his best drive and probably his best almost equally long shot to gain the 18th green in two. The expectation (intended in a design sense) of any other option or strategy was to lay up somehow on particularly the second shots and make up the shot that was lost distance-wise in some other manner before holing out.

This was the farthest thing from our present basically locked in perception of GIR with mulitiple options!!

This was much more the era of straight match play (far less expectation of "par GIR") and the era of basic match play or design concept, strategies or philosophy sometime referred to as "the tortoise and the hare". This was also the era of far less flexible tees!

The difference between the intended concepts of the strategies and shot values of those kinds of old fashioned "shot testing" holes is there really never was any forced lay-up off a tee for even the good player with that one-dimensional "shot-test", or more specifically, combination of two "shot-tests" one right after the other. Even the good player, particularly the good and strong player, was expected to accept the risk and 'blaze away" off the tee and if he executed that well to "blaze away" again for the green or to overcome some other hazard in two shots often with his most distance gaining club.

The only strategy available to the tortoise was to play conservatively and gain the green in one more shot than the hare might if he successfully executed those two combined "shot tests".

The whole point of this kind of one dimensional "shot testing"  at least in a match play context, is that if the "hare" was not successful in either of his two "blaze away" shots than he would be back on a par or even worse off than the tortoise who's strategy was as much to lay in wait for the hare to over-reach himself as it was for the tortoise to play conservatively and cautiously.

The prevalence of far more flexible tees and the entire architectural concept of far more multi-optional ways of more players gaining "par GIR" has done away with the popularity and excitement of this kind of one dimensional "shot testing" hole and design concept which pretty much always only related to the "hare" (the good and long player and not the tortoise (the shorter of physically weaker player).

This type of thing is interesting to understand for exactly what it was and what it was intended to do. This was probably golf and strategies back in the day when golfers were expected to come to terms realistically with their own limitations---when designers did not necessarily offer them designs and strategies that were "politically correct" equality---at least not in the sense of gaining a green and such in the same "par GIR" number (of strokes)!!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2004, 12:59:51 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2004, 11:09:08 AM »
TEP,

I have often thought about the 7th at PVGC and the fact they are essentially forcing eveyone to produce two shots in which the second must carry to a point 400-425 from the tee while the tee shot has a length restriction. This particular instance is interesting because the 'length restriction' is still pretty long (250 from the front tee). I would question, as you suggested, the very good player of the day needing his best drive and brassie to clear HHA, but I have no evidence as support. Does this really count as a cart before horse hole? Most people are able to hit there two longest shots before approaching the green with their third.

"Shot-testing" is however at the heart of the 'cart before horse' strategy and at HVCC the shot-tested is a 190-215 shot up a substantial hill. There are a couple of dynamics on this hole that make it more strategic and playable than 190-215 uphill might sound. Answering Wayne's question of the quality of the green on C-2, I don't know if it is one of his toughest greens (#8 RGGC, #10 HVCC, #7 SHGC) but I think it is a perfect green for this hole. The banked area to the right that gathers balls onto the green from up to 7-8 yards  to the right provides some relief, while missing that bank leaves a playable shot (no hazard of any kind) but a very difficult up-and-down. I feel this set-up plays into the tortise and hare philosophy quite well, because there is very little trouble to get into playing the hole as a three-shotter while attempting the "GIR par" provides some level of risk as well as the obvious reward.

Jim

TEPaul

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2004, 01:05:14 PM »
"I would question, as you suggested, the very good player of the day needing his best drive and brassie to clear HHA, but I have no evidence as support. Does this really count as a cart before horse hole? Most people are able to hit there two longest shots before approaching the green with their third."

Jim:

To answer the second part first, no, I don't view a hole (or the intended strategic concept of it) in the same way as the "cart before the horse" type you mentioned (a required shorter shot off the tee and a longer second). I would view a hole like #7 PVGC in that sort of analogy as maybe "two really strong horses and then the cart" ;) .

TEPaul

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2004, 01:28:35 PM »
Jim:

As for the first part--eg did the intended strategy actually require even a good player to hit his best drive and his best brassie to clear HHA in two shots? For me to say that may be stretching it some for obvious reasons (ie if that really were the case most golfers would probably screw up the hole most of the time, and obviously that wasn't what Crump/Tillinghas envisioned exactly).

This concept is best explained by Tillinghast in his entire chapter in "The Course Beautiful" (chapter 41) entitled "The three shotter".

The entire concept of what he (and apparently Crump) called the 'true three shotter' was very interesting and perhaps even unique. The one requirement (of Crump's) we can tell from written documentation is that the two par 5s on his course (PVGC) was that neither par 5 could EVER be reached in two shots by ANYONE!

Tillinghast said this about the first two shots required to clear HHA---".....but the big break (HHA which he specified must be about 100 yards in length and forced) prevents any half topped second from getting within range of the green and it offers a respectable carry for a well hit second which is to follow a good drive." The far end of HHA from the tips also measured no less than 400 yards which was not an insignificant distance to be required to CARRY a second shot in the teens!!

We also know that Crump was a virtual fanatic about requiring a good and long drive on many of his holes to produce a reasonable expectation of accomplishing the "ideal" option of the second shot. This obviously was only true of those holes on his course that were "long". Crump loved his driver and he and his friends even had a name for it----eg "Bolivar".

If you have that Tillinghast book read about his "three shotter" concept----there was a lot more to the concept than just what I've tried to explain here.

Jim:

You should also understand that this concept even relating back to the distances of that day probably weren't considering a great drive and brassie for golfers of your comparable length other-wise where would that have left golfers like me at my best when I had to play against you on an equal footing! But I'm sure you can see the basic idea behind that virtual one dimensional "shot testing" philosophy back in that day. Obviously it couldn't be conceived around the longest hitters of the day or it would've left the rest in quite a pickle even if they produced their very best.  Some of Crump's strategic concepts were very demanding for that day but not so demanding as to be ridiculous for the majority of decent players.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2004, 01:35:16 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2004, 03:59:41 PM »
TEP

Interesting comments about "Bolivar" and Crump's goals to reach the ideal position for approach. That makes it pretty clear what his golas were at PVGC.  I was not mistaking the distances current players hit the ball for those from the teens and twenties, but it seemed to me to be much to severe a penalty for those that did not / or could not reach the second portion of the 7th fairway to surrender essentially an entire stroke. I would say that the stories I have heard about the original intent of PV (only high quality players to play there) is supported whole-heartedly by these statements from both Tillinghast and Crump.

Until now I had never thought of Pine Valley as a severe driving test other than the fact that you cannot hit the ball way off-line. The course is relatively short with quite generous fairway width's, but if you think about the course and the forced distance / carry off the tee to get into the ideal approach position you get a very clear picture of how demanding it would have been 80 years ago.
#1---Over or around the right corner---230-250
#4---Over the hill---225-240 uphill
#6---Over any portion of the sand area---220-250
#7---Over HHA in two strokes---400+
#9---Into the deep right corner past the catchers mit---230
#11---Over the crest in the fairway---200
#13---Lower tee---220 or so to the plateau left center
#16---Over the right side of sand-225-240
These are estimates of the yardage needed to get into the best possible approach to the green, part of the genius is that on every one of these holes there are plenty of other options.

I look forward to reading The Course Beautiful. Tillinghast is one of my favorites, primarily for what I have seen at Winged Foot West considering the property. I have not yet seen the East or Quaker Ridge, but I doubt they will diminish my perception.

Jim

TEPaul

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2004, 05:38:02 PM »
"......but it seemed to me to be much too severe a penalty for those that did not / or could not reach the second portion of the 7th fairway to surrender essentially an entire stroke."

Jim:

That's true but that's the way it was intended to be. Some, perhaps many, don't think that's an example of classic strategic golf and probably not----but it is what I described---an example of something that was occasionally done on a course like that back then--eg one dimensional "shot testing" and occasionally in a back to back combination sense.

TEPaul

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2004, 05:43:21 PM »
Jim:

Added to your estimates is approximately what those holes are now with the new tee length additions;

#1---Over or around the right corner---230-250---can't add
#4---Over the hill---225-240 uphill---app 265-280
#6---Over any portion of the sand area---220-250---can't add
#7---Over HHA in two strokes---400+---app 440-465
#9---Into the deep right corner past the catchers mit---230--app 260+
#11---Over the crest in the fairway---200---can't add
#13---Lower tee---220 or so to the plateau left center---265+
#16---Over the right side of sand-225-240--app 255-270

#15 will have app 30+ added
#14 will be over 205
#3 will have maybe 10-15 added

JESII

Re:The cart before the horse!
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2004, 09:38:47 PM »
I love the notion of lengthening the long holes on a course when making those type of changes, ie 4, 7, 9, 13, 15, 16 & 18.