[TEPaul]

"---Has Gulph Mills adopted the "Ideal Maintenence Meld" yet?"

Jim:

We're trying but there are always potential problems. The greens can be dried out and made as firm as we want them but some fairways and approaches may have some problems with real firm and fast. Have you ever heard of "hydrophobic" soil conditions which can mean compacted soil? If fairways and approaches have that problem it can mean acheiving consistenly firm and fast conditions on fairways and approaches can be problematic. It would mean the soil might need some remediation and that can be expensive.

[Willie_Dow]

Jim

As Buddy would suggest - go play in the Northeast Amateur!  He does every year - at least the last five.

On 95, or so acres you will see, or find, the most interesting compaction of golf holes ever contained.

Very memorable - like - you will know it all when it is over.

Like Merion East !

Willie

[Mike_Cirba]

1) Do you really think Merion was routed so as to allow the type of 'expansion that has developed?
---I forget where but I have seen writing from Flynn that, because of equipment, courses one day would have to be 7500-800 yards to provide the type of challenge presented at the time he was working.
---I am sure some of our friends on this board, possibly yourself, are much more knowledgeable than I about the actual routing of the East Course, but I am aware that Flynn spent a great deal of time there in its early years as greenskeeper before striking out on his own as an architect. Do we know if Flynn had anything to do with the routing?

Jim;

I really don't believe that Merion was routed with the type of expansion we've seen recently in mind.  Just about every inch is now squeezed out of the property, with the sole purpose of proving to the USGA that the course is long enough for another US Open.  

Ironically, one of the biggest issues the USGA has with returning to Merion is specator access and accessibility.  By lengthening the course in the manner that they have, they have also exacerbated the problem of how you effectively get 15,000 or so people flowing through the property.  When the USGA's stated goal of attendance at most of their US Open courses is 35-40,000 a day, Merion is already at a huge disadvantage in that respect.  

I'm really hopeful that they decide to return, because as a test, I believe Merion would hold up, especially if the conditions are fast and firm.  However, the course has now been stretched to a degree where it's straining at the seams, so to speak.

As far as William Flynn's contributions, I'm of the belief that he had as much to do with the present day East course as Hugh Wilson.  I believe that Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul's evidence would indicate a similar finding.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

We will probably never know the details of who exactly routed Merion East in the early days of 1911. Obviously, the most logical thing to assume is that Hugh Wilson and his so-called "Merion Committee" routed the golf course. Flynn at that time was only 20 years old and was basically a glorified laborer who'd come to the old Merion Cricket course in Bryn Mawr that year or perhaps the year before.

But if one wants to use commonsense it would tell you that if the club had sent Hugh Wilson to Europe for a solid seven months of architectural study, sketching and such, the club obviously meant to use him to lead the committee to route and design the golf course. Otherwise, what and why did he go to Europe and study for seven months for?

Furthermore, I hope no one takes this the wrong way but routing a course on Merion East's property is pretty obvious compared to most other courses. In other words there's not that much lattitude to what the routing should be and can be---at least not in the sense of the basic direction of the holes. Somebody could've gone in reverse, of course, but that's not the point---the point is the holes would still lay out along the same corridors even if they were played in reverse. The reason is Merion East's site is a long L shaped thing on both legs of the L and there's really no ability to go perpendicular toteh way most every hole that's out there. If they did that they'd have a whole bunch of really short holes.

Doing a routing, in my opinion, is sort of like putting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together and the point is the clubhouse side of the L is less than 300 yards wide and the other side of Ardmore Ave is just about 300 yards wide. That's why there's only one hole on the course that goes perpindicular to the length of both sides of the big Merion L---eg #10---#11 sort of does but it swings left and goes to the end of the L as does #12 in reverse.

Bill Coore calls routing "taking a golf walk" and the routing golf walk at Merion East, as great as the course is and as great as the routing is in the broad scheme of routing golf courses, is pretty obvious when you think about it. Of course you can start the tees and stop the greens at any point along both legs of that long narrow L that is the Merion site but I think you know what I mean here about the routing being a pretty obvious "golf walk" for those that did it back in 1911.

There's that interesting story posted above about how the 15th and famous 16th came into being at the top of the Merion L. They ran out of room for two decent holes in that area so they traded land they owned across the street (now residences) for the land that is not about the last 100 yards of the 15th and the first 100 yards of the 16th.

[TEPaul]

Wayne;

By the way, I just noticed something in the Merion files this morning about the mystery of all the material and documentation that appears to be lost from the first phase of Merion's creation in 1911---perhaps including all Wilson's European sketches.

In a letter it was mentioned that basically much of the documentation of Merion East from that time was destroyed when the room in which it was kept flooded!

[JESII]

"---Has Gulph Mills adopted the "Ideal Maintenence Meld" yet?"

Jim:

We're trying but there are always potential problems. The greens can be dried out and made as firm as we want them but some fairways and approaches may have some problems with real firm and fast. Have you ever heard of "hydrophobic" soil conditions which can mean compacted soil? If fairways and approaches have that problem it can mean acheiving consistenly firm and fast conditions on fairways and approaches can be problematic. It would mean the soil might need some remediation and that can be expensive.

TEP,

No I have not previously heard the term 'hydrophobic' but it is interesting and disappointing to hear. I have long been a fan of Gulph MIlls and of the opinion that if GMGC were maitained rock hard from tee to green it would be recognized as a true gem. I enjoy GMGC as much as any other course in the city, it would just be that much better under "ideal" conditions.

Mike,

Several good points.
I have also heard that the USGA was primarily concerned about logistics (ie:spectator and tent access) as opposed to golf course length, as you mention, and the additional tees obviously would constrict those access areas more but---if the USGA was truthful about that, they don't have to use any of the new tees. That could all be spectating / walking area.

In defense of the USGA, I think a Merion Open would have a considerable potential disparity in scoring. In other words if the course played real firm and fast it would be a great test and close to par would win, while if the course was soft the scores would be significantly under par. I believe this uncertainty is a primary concern for the USGA. Admittedly I have no evidence to support this, other than the lengths they(the USGA) go to to protect par such as at Shinnecock.

TEP,

Your points about Merion's routing seem to make sense, and the remarks by Bill Coore are interesting as well. I had always thought the routing of a site would have to be the most complicated part of the design process. If he is implying that an architect routing a golf course should aim for an end result that feels like "taking a golf walk" I would agree. Where did I read (and I am not very well read) that upon planning a course the architect will explore the entire property and identify green sites. He may identify as many as one hundred before he is through. the next step is to look for all of the potential holes that could play to each green site. Finally he will break down the matrix of options to the one that leaves the 'ideal routing' for this site.
Any thoughts on this??

Jim

[PAW13]

Boys, the new total yardage at PCC is 6964 which was a 300 + increase from the original back tees.

In the Philly Open number 6 was played as a par 4 at 491.  Chris Lange shot 141 (+1).  In the PA State Mid-Am # 6 was played as a par 5 at 500 and  Sean Knapp shot 143 (+1).  

My guess is the USGA will play number 6 as a par 4 and max it out at 499.  At Oakmont in 2003 number 9 at 499 par 4 and number 3 at the Pittsburgh Field Club at 499 Par 4.

With regard to Number 17's new right tee.  It has not received high marks from most players.  While it is still a work in progress for the golf committee we have found that most of the players do not like they way it sets up, because you cannot hit a driver straight out away from the hole keep it in the fairway.  In the State Mid-AM we played the left tee and in the second round most players were hitting no more than 8 iron into the green.  When the USGA did a site visit for the championship they were quoted as loving the new tee box.  So I would guess they will play it in Am but you never know.  If you are a high ball hitter you can hit it over the right trees and have a 7 or 8 iron into the green.

Sully-the new tee on Number 6 at Merion is about 500.  I have been told that the USGA is going to use all the new tees at Merion to prove how hard the golf course is, so they can host the OPEN.  I personally have felt that the USGA never thought MErion was  not hard enough for the pros.  I think they have always looked at Merion for their of corporate tent space, thus lack of profit from the event and thus would not host another Open.  But the word on the street is that they are up for the 2013 OPen with The Country Club.  

It was long assumed that the Country Club was getting the 2013 OPEn because it was the 100th anniversery of Ouimet's win at the Country Club. But since the PGA pulled the 2005 PGA from the CC, it is now in jeopardy of losing that open.

BAck to the Amateur, the USGA has set up the golf courses the last three years very difficult.  I guess they have gotten tired of low numbers being shot in the qualifier.  In 2001 at East Lake it took 144 (should have been 143, a couple of lumps down the stretch).  AFter that I think they said let set it up more like an open, and thus the last three years I think Oakland HIlls was the lowest qualifying score at 147 or 148.

By the Happy Holidays to everyone.

[JESII]

Chet,

Re: #17 at PCC---Is there any way to extend the through fairway for those that cannot curve the ball enough? It probably leaves a poor approach angle to the green, but that is the penalty for not being able to hit the proper shot for the hole. I believe I read earlier on this thread from Wayne Morrison that Byron Nelson intentionally played to the top of the hill in 1939 so as to have a flat lie for his approach. Is this the hole where he holed one of those approaches. It may not be a driver to that spot, but if it worked for Lord Byron, it must be OK.  

Jim

[PAW13]

Sully the extension of the fairway is something we have talked about.  Actually the angle isn't that bad, but it is 200 + to the hole and for those who want to play it that way, that is what you get if you lay up.  Think back to Nick Faldo and the Open at Medinah, wasn't he hitting 1-iron off some of those long par 4's  on the back side and had 200+ in?

Lord Byron was very confident in his iron play the week of the 39 OPEN.  He told me that he hit 6 other flag sticks that week with his irons!

We are taking the slow approach to making the tee work.  It was the only option to put teeth back into the hole.  We could not go straight back since it would be in play on the 16th hole.  Hopefully we can figure it out.  We don't want to cut anymore trees down on the corner, because it will only make the left tee that much easier.  We did cut back the high rough last year by about 10 feet, but it looks like it has to go back more to allow for the straight ball to be playable.

[JSlonis]

Chester,

The "straight" ball is playable on #17 now from the right tee...but a player needs to be smart enough to know that it might be a 3 wood tee shot instead of a driver.  The guys that bitch about that tee shot are the guys that think you should be able to hit DRIVER off of every tee.  I've seen both extremes with guys risking a high cut driver off that tee.  In this year's DeBaufre I saw an 8 iron for an approach shot after a great high faded driver and I saw young JS barely finish the hole after two pulled straight drives into the high junk.  That is the only area I could see being softened.  I don't have a problem with really nasty rough, but I'm not sure what that stuff is over there.  Have you ever lost any members in there?

Like a hole I mentioned in another thread, this hole is just plain difficult from the right tee.  If a player is bold enough to risk the driver cutting the corner then he should be able to understand the consequences if he doesn't pull the shot off.  You guys at Philly CC should be confident enough in the quality of the hole to leave it alone now and let the golfers figure out how best way to play it.  It's an excellent difficult par 4, and the club shouldn't have to apologize for having a very hard hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim/Chet/Jamie;

I haven't seen the new back tee on 17 that's up to the right.  Does that conceivably make the hole a greater than 90 degree dogleg?

[JSlonis]

Mike,

No, it's not more than 90 degrees.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

No, it's not more than 90 degrees.  

Jamie;

I'm having a tough time imagining the angle of the tee shot.  I keep seeing a player almost having to slightly play away from the green, unless as was mentioned, someone tries to carry the trees on the corner.  I guess I'm mistaken from what you've said, but that would be a pretty tight angle, nonetheless.  

Still, I see the reasons behind it and it would certainly add drama to the tee shot that late in the round.

[JSlonis]

Mike,

The angle is very difficult.  You are correct in that you are aiming away from the green if you decide to take the safer route. Only a handful of players from the back tee can actually try to hit it over the corner due to the angle and height of the trees.  You have to hit the ball very high quite quickly to clear the initial trees and then far enough to clear the dogleg.  It's a very difficult shot to try, and one that I have not seen be successful very often. For a ratio, I'd say I have seen 1 good result to 4 bad ones for guys trying the riskier tee shot.

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