Carnoustie

[Buck Wolter]

Home with a sick son and while he watched the Wiggles I played a Tivo'd 'Wandering Golfer' show from Fine living that was about  Carnoustie (actually not a bad show as they've gone to Bandon, North Berwick and Pebble on other episodes).

This seems to be the least discussed course of it's stature on this board. Any ideas as to why that is? The Dali Lama rates it an 8 so it can't be too overrated, can it? All that's seems to be mentioned here is how tough it is and an occasional travelogue post.

What's wrong with Carnoustie?

Buck

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is nothing wrong with it to me. I love the course. It does not create a warm feeling due to its toughness. You can get beatup on every hole. It is a must play for me when in the area.

[Bob_Huntley]

A wonderful test of golf with some of the toughest finishing holes around. I think it suffers because Carnoustie has to be the greyest, dreariest town in Scotland.

Dan Jenkins wrote a piece for Sports Illustrated some thirty years ago titled "Pilgrimage to the Shrine." He was playing Carnoustie in less than clement weather and looking around at the gloominess of the town, said to his caddie, "Now you would not mistake this for Cap d'Antibes would you?" I am not sure if the reply was "Well Sir, if we could get as nip of the stuff in your bag it might brighten things up a bit."

[JSlonis]

Buck,

Carnoustie was the last course our group played on my first trip to Scotland(Aug. 03').  In my view there wasn't anything wrong with the course, I thought it was an excellent test of golf.  The only things I could think of that people would crtitcize would be that although it's a great links course, it is situated on a pretty bland piece of property. Also, it isn't close to the water, and it does not have the linksy feel and views that many of the other great Scottish courses do.

Another point of interest is that while still being firm, the course was fairly "green" compared to all the other places we had played.  I spoke to the Head Professional at Carnoustie  and he stated that they did have a newer irrigation system , but unlike other courses in Scotland...they actually turn theirs ON.  He said that given the soil and turf at Carnoustie, that with the amount of play they get, with a dry summer like they had in 2003, the place would be dust by the end of the summer.

The only problem I had with Carnoustie was that even after having to stay at the Carnoustie Hotel, paying a fairly high green fee, and checking our HDCP cards, we still had to play the "regular" tees.  I can assure you that no matter how difficult everyone says Carnoustie is, it was a helluva lot easier from 6300 yds compared to what we would have liked to play at 7000 yds +.  That was the one item I found odd on my entire trip, I couldn't really understand the Scot's mentality for only allowing groups to play the shorter tees.  It would seem to me that if a course goes through the trouble to check players HDCP's then they should allow players to play certain tees based on some figure.  A few courses that we played actually did this, they checked our cards and said play wherever you like, while others checked for reasons unbeknownst to me.  Oh well....I suppose I'm being just an "ugly American".

[THuckaby2]

Jamie:

It does seem rather silly forcing a player like you to use the up tees.  But unfortunately, for every truly strong visitor like yourself, they likely see 10 vanity handicaps or downright falsified ones, carried by "tips or nothing" true ugly Americans.  So rather than have visitor days make for 6 hour rounds, they force everyone to play up.

TH

[Gary_Nelson]

Jamie,

I played as a single on my few rounds in St. Andrews.  I teed off #1 from the "regular" tees then moved to the tips for the rest of the round.  This was on the New course and Jubilee course.   Carnoustie was played as a threesome, entirely from the regular tees.

I'm a big fan of Carnoustie, probably from the "experience".  Here was a solid test of golf and my best memories are the stories told from the caddies.  We talk a lot about how the experience influences our opinions of a golf course (ie. Shadow Creek).  In this case the experience had nothing to do with luxuries (GPS, emerald green grass, bag boys, clubhouse, etc).  The old Carnoustie clubhouse was ugly.  My memory was making 4 on #16 (245 yard Par 3) and the caddie pulling me aside and telling me that Tom Watson never parred this hole either.  It's my "career bogey"... if there is such a thing.

[Robert Thompson]

Sean: You prefer the Burnside? Surely not. As a relief course I thought the Burnside was dull, and the only truly interesting hole, the par three over the burn, was out of play the day we arrived.
As for Carnoustie -- it is a supreme test of golf with the best finishing kick in the game. Hard to imagine a better series of closing holes than 15 through 18.
I think many get turned away from the likes of Carnoustie and Muirfield because they lack the inherent beauty of Turnberry or Dornoch, or the quirkiness of St. Andrews or Cruden Bay.
I've played to scratch and been beaten up by Carnoustie twice -- and I'd go back to get kicked again. The strategies of the course are sublime and the punishment is fair -- hit the shots and you'll be rewarded.
Pretty it is not, but great it is (sounding a bit like Yoda here.)
As for the price, surely Carnoustie is a better value at 90 pounds than Troon is at 155.

Robert

[Mike Hendren]

Carnoustie is somewhat of a tease.  A rather pedestrian landscape from the first tee that quickly descends into wonderful dell.  Now this is more like it.  The anticipation escalates dramatically at the second - beautiful dunes, a clever green and above all else we're headed right out to sea.  Wow, that was one of the most beautiful holes we've ever played.  Alas, we're quickly rebuffed by turning inland at the 3rd.  

Our hearts soar again as we approach the massive 4th/14th green and even better we're headed back to the sea at the 5th to a wonderful green that seems to climb right up the dunes!  We're not too disappointed this time to turn away from the sea, as we've long read of the legendary Hogan's Ally at the 6th and every yard of this three-shotter is delightful, finishing in a beautifully bunkered green tucked in a corner among the gorse.  

A little air leaks out of the sails on 7 through 11, though these are solid holes and the leak is almost imperceptable.  We're buoyed by the cool sunken green at 12 and have our breath taken away by the sheer beauty of the one-shot 13th - our only regret being unable to play to all of the wonderful pin positions offered by the hour-glass green.  

What a treat to see a ball disappear over the Spectacles at 14, notwithstanding the fact that it's our third shot.  That 3-wood will come in handy into a stiff breeze on three of the next four holes, which prove to be nothing short of brutal and a lesson in the value of a solid-bogey and the respect demanded by a true championship golf course.  The options from the 17th tee are so overwhelming that we just swing hard and hope.   We quickly realize the quality of Lawrie's playoff performance should dwarf the foolishness of the Frenchman.  

The course demands that you play well.  In 30 degree weather, strong winds and sleet and hail, I did not.  I could not wipe the smile off my face that day.  I'm smiling now.  I love Carnoustie.

Mike

[Yancey_Beamer]

Yes,I know the land about Carnoustie is bland.
However to play the course is magnificant.
That is a bit difficult to explain as even the Scots refer to it as Carnasty.
Also,the four finishing holes are fascinating.Brutal,Yes,but fascinating.
.

[Buck Wolter]

I've never been to Carnoustie and have seen only glimpses. I know Hogan won his only British there and that Van de Velde collpased on 18 but that's about it. What US course would you compare Carnoustie to?

[Yancey_Beamer]

Thats the fascination. I can't think of a comparison.

[Mark_F]

Possibly Carnoustie is a little to straightforward?  

After all, it doesn't have the apparent mystery and subleties of The Old Course to decipher.  I don't mean that it hasn't a few tricks up it's sleeve, but it's definitely not The Times crossword of golf courses.

I loved it, even after starting 7,6,6.  It just has too many fantastic holes to ignore.  Much more than The Old Course.  

[Doug Siebert]

I'm a big fan of Carnoustie, probably from the "experience".  Here was a solid test of golf and my best memories are the stories told from the caddies.  We talk a lot about how the experience influences our opinions of a golf course (ie. Shadow Creek).  In this case the experience had nothing to do with luxuries (GPS, emerald green grass, bag boys, clubhouse, etc).  The old Carnoustie clubhouse was ugly.  My memory was making 4 on #16 (245 yard Par 3) and the caddie pulling me aside and telling me that Tom Watson never parred this hole either.  It's my "career bogey"... if there is such a thing.

Carnoustie will always have a place in my heart, especially the 16th hole, because I got my first ace there on my first visit in 1991.  Parred the last two, and my caddie told me he'd been carrying for over 30 years and never seen anyone finish the last three in two under.  Probably the only thing I'll ever do that even Tiger can't

But even sweeter was returning 10 years later, after having thought a million times about what sort of huge number I might put up on that hole to ruin my lifetime average, and I ran in a 35 footer from the fringe for a birdie and a lifetime average of 1.5!  Like Watson, I guess I still haven't ever parred it...

So you can understand why Carnoustie's 16th is still my favorite hole.  At least until my next visit


JSlonis,

Not sure what the deal is with playing from the tips there.  In '91, I played to an 8, and showed my handicap card and played from the tips at Troon, Turnberry and Caroustie (but TOC wouldn't hear of it)  In 2001 I was sporting a 4.7 but was told by the starter at Carnoustie they didn't permit guests to play from the back tees.  I told him I'd been allowed to do so on a previous visit and would move up if we fell behind but to no avail.

My understanding from talking to some Scots when I played Muirfield on the last day of the trip is that you really need to write and ask for permission to play from the tips beforehand -- having your club pro write and vouch for you would probably be the best option.  I guess they figure that vanity handicappers aren't going to go to that much trouble.  If you try that on a subsequent visit let me know how it works out.

[Matthew Mollica]

Another vote for Carnoustie being a wonderful course that gets undersold. So many different directions of holes. Forrest Richardson's book on routing illustrates this point perfectly.

Not many more enjoyable days, or complimentary rounds in the one day, than 18 at Carnoustie, and then a second 18 down the road at Panmure. What a cool little course. I played it on a late afternoon in wonderful light, by myself, and I think the loop cost me 15 quid !?!

Matthew