[tonyt]

A lot of Australian clubs nip the vanity tee marker player in the bud quite easily.

On comp day, everyone of course plays from the same tees. On non-comp days (such as at resort courses or clubs with many guests or visitors), the tees are moved forward. If for example they have teeing mounds in order for black, gold, blue then white (and ladies' red in front), the white mound also has the blues on it a few yards back, the gold tees are in the blue zone and the blacks are either in the gold zone or out of play (depending on the audience of the day). Taking blacks out of play shouldn't be a drama at courses where the client only had them put in for infrequent tournament play or ego-related card length. And so players who are happy to play one set in front of the back markers play the blue since gold is the back tee of the day.

As for this mucking up the card measurements, the card is just a piece of paper, and the yardages are on the tees. And everyone enjoys their golf, nobody shoots 68 off a 5 handicap or 78 off a 15, and everyone is having their second drink or main course after four and a half hours.

[Cliff Hamm]

I recall a discussion when caddying at a championship course in my youth about wanting to play the course as the pros do.  The essence was that playing from the back tees was not the way to do so, as the shot in would be nothing like the pros would have, given the difference in distance off the tee.  Thus the conversation ended with the opinion that to play the course like the pros do it is best to play from a more forward tee so that the shot in would be closest to what the pros typically hit.

[TEPaul]

To be frank, I'm no fan at all of the way they do the tee arrangements and the permission to play tees on most courses in Europe but I'm glad there is a difference between the way we do it and the way they do it---I guess I'll always defend cultures doing things differently although I sure don't understand why they demand that you can't play the tips over there sometimes. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Last year a friend of mine and I played some pretty decent course in Yorkshire (for some reason the name of it escapes me) and we had a combined handicap of about 5 and since we'd never been there before and probably never would be again we were sort of hoping to play the whole course (from the tips) but they said we couldn't. The back tee markers were there though and matter of fact it was handicap competition day or whatever they call that and there were two groups of four ahead of us playing the tips (I guess they had to) and absolutely hacking it all over the place. They were extremely polite and let us through in a timely fashion but both groups reminded us that we shouldn't be playing the tip tees as they were. So, I really just didn't get it---the tee markers were there, we weren't even remotely holding anyone up (no one around us), so what's the big deal about not allowing the two of us to play the tips? Since there wasn't anyone around most of the day we just did it anyway.

[TEPaul]

Matter of fact, I think I'm becoming a big advocate of courses leaving tee markers on the tips all the time for really good players or good players not from the course to use at their option. It's frankly one of the best ways of getting people over this peception that some courses are too short today. I think PVGC has started to leave tee markers on the new tips all the time or at least I hope they are. Some might say that PVGC is old and too short but if they play the course from the tips because they have them there all the time and offer that option I'd challenge most anyone to claim that course is too short from those new tip tees. I suggest Merion East leave tee markers on their new tips all the time too---it really will get most any player over this perception the course is too short and obsolete because of that!

[Jason McNamara]

They either don't realize that the whites on one course are different than another, and perhaps beyond their abilities.  Or they realize it, and don't care because they want to get beaten up by a course beyond their abilities.  That's all it can be...

We've got a 65-year-old guy at our club who's about a 25 and his best tee shots go 220 yards.  He insists on playing the course at 6800 yards (blue tees, second to last set).  I mentioned to him that Champions Tour guys play courses at 6800 yards, but that argument had no effect.  We have tees at 6400+, so it's not as if he'd be moving straight to the forward boxes.  But you can't make any headway with the guy, even though there's five or six par 4s he'll never reach in regulation.

Jason

[Brent Hutto]

I routinely play my home course from the 6,250 yard black tees (most people say it plays more like 6,400 yards because of elevation changes on almost every hole). That's at a par of 71.

I just decided to switch to the 5,500 yard white or "senior" tees for the winter. Moved up yesterday and hit every single fairway and seven of eighteen greens. Actually, over 27 holes I hit every fairway and a total of eleven greens plus a couple of shots that were a few inches into the fringe.

My conclusion is that it's a qualitatively different game hitting irons on most of the Par 3's, reaching all of the Par 4's including several with mid-irons, and 9-irons or maybe even wedges into the Par 5's. My usual game of laying up on half the Par 4's and using 4-iron and 5-woods on the rest is fun and I get lots of practice at hitting wedges after layups. But the ego boost of making two-putt pars is actually just as attractive as the ego boost of "seeing the whole course".

[Jim Johnson]

They either don't realize that the whites on one course are different than another, and perhaps beyond their abilities.  Or they realize it, and don't care because they want to get beaten up by a course beyond their abilities.  That's all it can be...

We've got a 65-year-old guy at our club who's about a 25 and his best tee shots go 220 yards.  He insists on playing the course at 6800 yards (blue tees, second to last set).  I mentioned to him that Champions Tour guys play courses at 6800 yards, but that argument had no effect.  We have tees at 6400+, so it's not as if he'd be moving straight to the forward boxes.  But you can't make any headway with the guy, even though there's five or six par 4s he'll never reach in regulation.

Jason

Jason,
What's the guy's logic? Or have you asked him?
JJ

[Jim Thompson]

Pete,

There's one other advantage to having the tips painted red.  You can't imagine how many of your buddies will take the "Hell, you can play from the red tees and I'll play the white even up" bet.

Very lucrative.

JT

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

What if someone made that bet on a "home and home" basis?....

Joe

[Jim Thompson]

Joe,

If you can get someone to take it against you with your game, I might just consider financing the bet.

[Sean_A]

Because I am not bothered about cards turned for handicap purposes, I usually hop around between sets of tees depending on the difficulty etc, especially on par 3s and 5s.  Yardage doesn't really come into play on the decision.  It's more about the challenge.  In fact, often times we play that the last winner of a hole chooses the tees.  

Of course, choosing tees usually only works outside of the UK.  Here, we don't have much of a choice.  Comp. tees are closed unless you are playing in a comp. or have permission to play the tips.  I think this has more to do with priority on the course as much as anything else.

Ciao

Sean

[Jason McNamara]

We've got a 65-year-old guy at our club who's about a 25 and his best tee shots go 220 yards.  He insists on playing the course at 6800 yards (blue tees, second to last set).  I mentioned to him that Champions Tour guys play courses at 6800 yards, but that argument had no effect.  We have tees at 6400+, so it's not as if he'd be moving straight to the forward boxes.  But you can't make any headway with the guy, even though there's five or six par 4s he'll never reach in regulation.

Jason

Jason,
What's the guy's logic? Or have you asked him?
JJ

JJ -

I've never got an answer which really explained his thinking.  Most of the other folks he plays with play the 6800 tees, though they all hit it farther and have somewhat lower handicaps.  (I've offered to move up one set - again, to 6400 - when playing with him, but he hasn't been interested.)  He may also think playing a longer course will somehow force him to improve more.  But he doesn't practice every day, nor does he seem to recognize there's a vast gulf between him and, say, Hale Irwin and Tom Watson.

I should also add that this is not a guy who's been playing for 50 years and can hit all those greenside shots stone dead.  A missed GIR is a bogey.  So he tees off from the blues, and his starting par is essentially 86.  (And from there, he'll be 10 over par.)

Never hitting a GIR adds a lot of time to a round, by the way.  

Jason

[tonyt]

We've got a 65-year-old guy at our club who's about a 25 and his best tee shots go 220 yards.  He insists on playing the course at 6800 yards (blue tees, second to last set).  I mentioned to him that Champions Tour guys play courses at 6800 yards, but that argument had no effect.  We have tees at 6400+, so it's not as if he'd be moving straight to the forward boxes.  But you can't make any headway with the guy, even though there's five or six par 4s he'll never reach in regulation.

Jason

Jason,
What's the guy's logic? Or have you asked him?
JJ

JJ -

I've never got an answer which really explained his thinking.

A number of garden variety golfers want to play "the whole course". They hit their tee shot, and then keep hitting their ball until they hole it, and then move on to the next hole. I'm not talking about being too dumb for strategy or anything, just that shot values created by short/mid/long irons or woods on holes are not what they are there for, 'nor what they notice. They feel they are sneaking a head start by playing more forward tees, and in many instances, the retort will even be about having paid a green fee and getting their money's worth (in real estate, not shots).

[Michael Moore]

I sure don't understand why they demand that you can't play the tips over there sometimes.

"An American leaves his country with a heart swollen with pride; on arriving in Europe, he at once finds out that we are not so engrossed by the United States and the great people who inhabit it as he had supposed, and this begins to annoy him. He has been informed that the conditions of society are not equal in our part of the globe, and he observes that among the nations of Europe the traces of rank are not wholly obliterated, that wealth and birth still retain some indeterminate privileges, which force themselves upon his notice while they elude definition. He is therefore pro- foundly ignorant of the place that he ought to occupy in this half-ruined scale of classes, which are sufficiently distinct to hate and despise each other, yet sufficiently alike for him to be always confounding them. He is afraid of ranking himself too high; still more is he afraid of being ranked too low. This twofold peril keeps his mind constantly on the stretch and embarrasses all he says and does.

He learns from tradition that in Europe ceremonial observances were infinitely varied according to different ranks; this recollection of former times completes his perplexity, and he is the more afraid of not obtaining those marks of respect which are due to him, as he does not exactly know in what they consist."

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, Volume II

[Jason McNamara]

A number of garden variety golfers want to play "the whole course". They hit their tee shot, and then keep hitting their ball until they hole it, and then move on to the next hole. ... and in many instances, the retort will even be about having paid a green fee and getting their money's worth (in real estate, not shots).

Tony:

I've heard of that annoying "whole course" phenomenon at daily fee courses (esp. regarding Bethpage Black - "I want to play where Tiger played"), but at a club where one is a member?  And this is in Houston - it's a really enjoyable course, but the views sure aren't Pebble or what have you...

Jason

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