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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2004, 04:39:10 AM »
Have you been to Friar's Head and experienced it to the point where you can justify leaving it off of your list?

There is nothing minimal about Friar's Head. Whatsoever. Behold the maximalist sixteenth green. I could go on . . . Barney did this exercise a few weeks ago with Cusco.



Michael,
This is the problem I have with the understanding of the word, Minimilism in the golf architecture sense.

For me, I find the term more in line with those who are willing to do whatever they feel is neccessary, yet not to do it to the extreme to the point that the subject loses its character to the natural reality. This doesn't mean moving mountains to create in an area of sand dunes, it means things like utilizing the sand dunes for their worth--in this case, as naturally occuring as possible. If it doesn't exist, then create it!  

With Friar's Head and its lower holes, much credit is given to Coore & Crenshaw for creating something out of flat farm land. The point is that features were found on that property and they were utilized to their fullest. Others had to be created to produce the best golf for the areas where it needed to be emphasized. In some cases, it may have to be "trimed down" to make it worthy for golf.

The amazing thing about Friar's Head is that you CAN'T tell what is real and what is created.  I have never had that same feeling on many modern courses. It just doesn't happen often, and frankly, that's the beauty of the site of Friar's Head as well as the genius of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.

At Rustic Canyon, a course I'm somewhat familiar with, I was fortunate to get to know the site before it was a golf course. its interesting to point out to others what is real and what is created. It's 8th hole is anything but Minimilism, yet it looks as if that portion of land that was moved-in and created, had been carved by Mother Nature for years. That's what makes a GREAT golf architect. That to me is what minimilism

Mike_Sweeney

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2004, 06:05:07 AM »

The amazing thing about Friar's Head is that you CAN'T tell what is real and what is created.  I have never had that same feeling on many modern courses. It just doesn't happen often, and frankly, that's the beauty of the site of Friar's Head as well as the genius of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.


Tommy,

I would agree with you on The Dune holes at FH you can't tell, but the farm holes, certainly some here could pick out a few created features. ;) Look at the farm across the street from FH in Ran's picture. It is a flat farm, which is how farmers like their property.



There are few people here who are bigger fans of C&C, I just agree with Michael's underlying point that this Minimalist term gets bastardized in the PR/Marketing machine of golf.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 21
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2004, 07:14:45 AM »
The "minimalist" term gets bastardized in the PR/marketing machine of golf??

It came out of the PR/marketing machine, courtesy of Ron Whitten.  It's not like you were using it ten years ago.  The problem is, everything that is said about golf architecture can be used for marketing [and usually is].

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 6
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2004, 07:21:47 AM »
Tom,

Interesting in how these terms get used for marketing. I'm curious about how much the general golfing public even notices words like "minimalist", or "modern".....or whatever words get used to describe new golf courses. My guess is the word "championship" is still the most used, least descriptive (and maybe most effective) marketing jargon.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

blasbe1

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2004, 08:07:11 AM »
6. Please define sycaphantical as it relates to the post.

I mis-spelled, sycophant- and as used I appreciated the post DESPITE its "sycophatical" tendencies, meaning that we as a group tend to admire more strongly one school of GCA and constantly shower this school with praise, to a certain extent the leaders of that school are people of great influence within the GCA world and thus while not blatant, I considered the original post to be a little kiss-ass.

Sycophant - "A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people."  




Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2004, 09:55:21 AM »
Synonym: butt-boy (a.k.a. heinie-boy).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tony_Chapman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2004, 10:34:42 AM »
Ok, here I go. From reading this thread and doing a bit of pondering I am going to try to list 10 courses that may fit Mark's question.

Sand Hills: The leader in the new age of golf design. A top course in the world and the US, regardless of the period it was designed.

Shadow Creek: Pretty cool stuff for being in the desert. Totally manufactured, but they did that in the 1920's too.

Rustic Canyon: Others are more qualified to comment than I am on this course.

Wild Horse: Open landscaped. Firm and fast. Valuable public golf.

The Bandon Resort: These have to be a collection for me. They are the first truly great and "only golf" destination built in a long, long time.

Whistling Straits: Some of Pete's best work. Again, totally manufactured but as looks as if it was supposed to be there.

Friars Head: This has been a debated a bit, but most probably wouldn't argue it's merit.

The Ocean Course: I hope this one isn't hard to argue. The best meeting of "east coast" land and water.

Insert your course here: For me, I think this is Sutton Bay, even though it fairly new.

Prairie Club, Ballyneal, Dismal River Club: Very possible these could all make the list when they open.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2004, 10:37:19 AM by Tony_Chapman »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2004, 03:01:20 PM »
Redanman & Mike,
Naturalistic is a VERY good one. Also further discussing it with someone in the know, he doesn't call it Minimilization he and the rest of them call it Maximizing because its takes a lot of intensive and creative work to look as if the minimal was done. Thus further backing-up Redanman's view.

I have been fortunate to see in both pictures and in person, how many of these guys create in the field. Their efforts to make it all look as natural as it seems. That's why I was having trouble with this word Minimilism. I don't think for one minute you could discount the beauty of the work that these guys perform either.  They are more then artists.

A friend explained to me:

...we started saying that we were maximizing the site. i.e. using the routing to sucessfully weave the course around wetlands while utilizing existing features. This helps reduce the amount of dirt that needs to be moved. We moved / transplanted numerous amonts of trees. We  built bunkers into existing native grasses, while " chunking " grasses from out of play areas to create natural appearing features. The superintendent will continue to harvest ( thinout ) natives grasses and transplant throughtout the course to increase the " minimalist " look. When you think about the entire process you are actually maximizing all the natural elements from the site. Not to many courses are built doing minimal disruption to the site. Things are to random in nature to fit a great golf course. From Sand Hills to Rustic Canyon people would be surprised the amount of work that goes into making a course feel and look as if it was placed on existing ground "a la minimalism". That is were the hard work and talent becomes evident.......

This has the makings of a really good thread if your willing to read into it. Open your mind everyone! I'm even learning myself!

Tony_Chapman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2004, 03:12:53 PM »
A friend explained to me:

...we started saying that we were maximizing the site. i.e. using the routing to sucessfully weave the course around wetlands while utilizing existing features. This helps reduce the amount of dirt that needs to be moved. We moved / transplanted numerous amonts of trees. We  built bunkers into existing native grasses, while " chunking " grasses from out of play areas to create natural appearing features. The superintendent will continue to harvest ( thinout ) natives grasses and transplant throughtout the course to increase the " minimalist " look. When you think about the entire process you are actually maximizing all the natural elements from the site. Not to many courses are built doing minimal disruption to the site. Things are to random in nature to fit a great golf course. From Sand Hills to Rustic Canyon people would be surprised the amount of work that goes into making a course feel and look as if it was placed on existing ground "a la minimalism". That is were the hard work and talent becomes evident.......

This may be the greatest thing I have learned about golf course architecture since joining the discussion. Great stuff, Tommy. Thanks!!

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2004, 03:13:10 PM »
Tommy

Your desription of maximizing seems to be more accurate than the minimalism.  I think....

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mike_Sweeney

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2004, 05:11:23 PM »
Tommy,

Here are four "farm holes" on four courses built in the last 8 years or so where at least part of the course is on the Farmlands of The North Fork/East End of Long Island:

Gil Hanse's Tallgrass:



C&C's Friar Head



Long Island National by RTJ III



Laurel Links by Kelly Moran



So which one is the most "minimalistic" hole or course? I would say Kelly's course, and it is not my favorite. Thus, my issue with the term "Minimalism". It implies that if you don't move dirt you are part of the new wave. I like your new Maxiimizing term, because it is the reality of what I like and it seems like the reality of what many architects are trying to do today. Yes, Friars Head would be my most Maximized course.

By the way, to further complicate things, Laurel Links was financially successful for lots of reasons. However a smaller budget allows for a quicker payback.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2004, 06:26:11 PM »
Mike Sean & Tony,
I would love to be so bold to take credit for the term, but it isn't mine so much as its Jim Wagner's and Gil's via their education in the fine art of golf course design. Jim has been the most enjoyable teacher and educator to me, as have many others such as Geoff Shackelford, Tom Doak, Tom Paul, Bill Coore & Co, Brad Klein and way too many others that could and should be credited yet would probably cease to speak to me if I did credit them.

While I'm not really good with the words or terms as most of the educated, "Maxmizing" or "Maximist" (probably not a word)or even "Naturalistic" are great terms for what my personal favorites in Golf Architecture actually do.

Mike, your depiction is perfect. I'm going to try to make it to Laurel Links next time. If I remember right, the vision of that paticular hole at LI National is exactly what made me turn around in the parking lot and get out of their in search of te perfect NY Strip Steak. I needed something at the time to make me forget that abomination! ;D

But just in case I raise the ire of others for saying that....

My problems with that hole are the entire right corner of the picture. Just too way man-made and un-natural for me. There's nothing Minimilistic or Maximist about it! ;)

I'm starting to like that term Maximist, it has a sort of Max Behr-ish ring to it!  ;D

Mark Brown

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2004, 06:42:38 PM »
Tommy,

I like the term naturalist -- one who maximises the natural attributes of the site with the minimal amount of earth-moving and man-made features. A naturalist creates as great a course possible on any given site, with the result appearing to be totally natural.

Does that work?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2004, 03:53:11 AM »
Mark,
Pretty much on the button. But more like this:

one who maximises the natural attributes of the site with the right amount of earth-moving and man-made features needed to make it seem as if it is in total tune with its natural environment. A naturalist creates as great a course possible on any given site, with the result appearing to be totally natural.

That works! :)

A great thread, and give yourselves all "A+'s" for particpating in it. I too am going to give myself an "A+!"

Much thanks to Jim Wagner!

redanman

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2004, 06:39:35 AM »
- the right amount of ...........................
-A naturalist creates as great a course possible on any given site
-That works! :)
- I too am going to give myself an "A+!"


(I'll put the p.s. up top here) I give myself a "C+" so far as I am still working on this one.

Who is to determine "The right amount?  Consider yourself taken to task as a self-appointed arbiter.  ;)  So, no, perhaps it doesn't "work", that won't work for me, maybe you  grade yourself too easily, Tommy-man. I don't have the answer, if there is one yet. ;) (I am certainly not, THE arbiter, either.)

I was just lying there thinking about the term "Naturalistic" as I awoke.  Naturalistic is a visual description and is inherently a bit limited by that characteristic.  It may endorse a certain judgement - right or wrong that it doesn't necessarily deliver.

Unfortunately, "Naturalistic" can be disharmonistic and dysrhythmic. Features can have a very natural-appearing character, well-intentioned but over-done (Who is to determine what is over-done?) or inappropriate to the inherent natural features.  

It's probably mathematical in theory with harmonic wavelengths of visual light (color) and mechanical components (feature shaping) of the package. (Interestingly, Ran has perhaps unintentionally removed the wavelengths of visual light from the equation with his excellent B & W photos of Friar's Head.  They appear old-timey and very appropriate to the design, but automatically create an image that deprives the viewer the full picture. (I'm not saying that that is for better or worse, just observing.))  

B & W is very powerful in this case in this forum.  It removes the seasonality from the image to a great degree, it denies the viewer the colours and focuses on the mechanical.  It automatically creates an association for the viewer that may or may not be entirely fair especially if used in comparison.  

Again considering the term "naturalistic"....As another example  and.....NOT to pick on them!....... but the best example of which I can think is when Hamilton Farm first opened (They've really changed it now), the bunkering, which is prolific, was very rough-edged and there was such a jagged-ness and there was so much of it it was almost nauseating.  It was distracting and it did not fit the site.

So in a way, Tommy, I do basically agree with your statement
"with the right amount of earth-moving and man-made features needed to make it seem as if it is in total tune with its natural environment", but it is capricious and arbitrary.  Different observers will have different thresholds and opinions of the same views whether 2-D or 3-D as they see them.

Naturalistic is a terminology, but it may not survive scrutiny any better than minimalism in a way, but it does provide a category and a descriptive term that can be useful, but again, it is not all-encompassing nor able to convey a certain "je ne sais quoi" which is what we're trying to pigeon-hole here.  :-\  Right and wrong will be vastly different for different people.

Minimalism is a marketing device and naturalistic is a visual interpretation.  Perhaps they are best described as so-called overlapping circles on a venn diagram (Interestingly enough, the three primary colour circles that overlap to form other colours are a perfect example of a venn diagram for those that don't remember spatial mathematical terms!)  The venn diagram circles will overlap more on some courses than others and those that have more harmonic circles or greater level of overlap will perhaps be the most appealing to most observers.  :D

So unable to describe what I am to list, I have produced no courses yet for the list. :'(

I also wouldn't call that photo of Tallgrass the most representative of that course as it is not THAT sandy and that view of LI NAtional is not particularily offensive to me, just to complete the photo opinions .  (Laurel Links is not showing right now)


   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004, 06:51:47 AM by redanman »

Mark Brown

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2004, 11:15:11 AM »
Tommy/Redanman

We may never define Naturalistic perfectly but I think we're getting pretty close to an overall understanding of the difference between minimalism (which isn't necessarily a positive) and naturalism (and maximimizing) which makes sense to those who have an understanding of the game of golf and the art of architecture.

We'll make more progress by looking at specific courses and how they stack up in reference to what has been defined.

Thanks for helping me out. It is a worthy discussion and I think GCA.com does have an impact on the future path of architecture. Like the shift from the penal monsters of the 80s to a more classic naturalism in the 90s and the present.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2004, 11:51:48 AM »
Mark, Tommy & Redanman

Right, the love in is over.  Please explain the main differences between classic architecture and naturalism/minimalism/maximalism architecture.  Please try to avoid the Venn diagrams.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2004, 12:17:53 PM »
Naturomaximalist?

Maxinaturalist?

Hmmm...

Which one sounds more Naccaratonian?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2004, 12:23:37 PM »

A great thread, and give yourselves all "A+'s" for particpating in it. I too am going to give myself an "A+!"


Looks like grade inflation isn't solely a Harvard problem. ;)

Bill Gayne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2004, 12:46:11 PM »
In 19th century art, realism and naturalism were both responses to romanticism. The same applies to golf course art in the 21st century.

(I always thought naturalist were really nudist who were uncomfortable with the term nudist  ;))

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2004, 02:26:19 PM »
If I missed this in a fast skim of the 4 pages, excuse...

But, I didn't see anyone mention some of the courses of Eddie Hackett.  What more do you guys need as a guide line to defining minimal.  Building a course, including the archie fee, for a few thousand pounds or whatever they go by...  and ending with a damn beautiful walk throught the links is about as minimal as it gets! ;D

I haven't played Notre Dames course, but for those that have, do you feel that is a good example of minimal?  I am also of the opinion that Friars Head and Cuscowilla don't qualify for minimal.  

High Point is minimalist as well as Delaware Springs, Rustic Canyon and that Gothenburg place.  

Cozad CC is pretty minimal.  Another great call Barney, and so much so that you should go there on your next trip through Nebraski. :P  So is Dannebrog CC in that same manner, see below... ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2004, 03:05:54 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,



Why is it that when people on this site want to promote a modern day golf course they post pictures of it in Black & White, and when they want to denegrate a golf course they always post in full color ?
[/color]



The amazing thing about Friar's Head is that you CAN'T tell what is real and what is created.  I have never had that same feeling on many modern courses. It just doesn't happen often, and frankly, that's the beauty of the site of Friar's Head as well as the genius of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.

Does it really make a difference ?

Does it really make a difference if the product is outstanding ?

Before you answer, think about NGLA.

Those tees and greens are about as artificial as you can get, yet, they are magnificent in their design and play.

It's the quality of the finished product, not the method you chose to get there.
[/color]




SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2004, 03:45:33 PM »
Pat - You bring up an interesting point, or at least your post got me thinking about something.  

Might there be times where perhaps it does matter, irrespective of the final product? A manufactured finished product may be marvelous, but you can always speculate what would have been the result had the land been better utilized or less manipulated (e.g. manufactured).

Surely you can't fault Fazio for not going natural in North Las Vegas. Likewise, would Kingsbarns and Whistling Straits have turned out differently were it not for considerable manipulation of the sites?

It gets maybe to the heart of what was being debated over on the Sandpines thread. The finished product might have been a very decent course, but could it have been better given the land prior to construction? (and again, so there is no misunderstanding, this is a rhetorical question, not a position on either the land prior to construction or the course following it).

I'm sure there are some architects who agonize over the dilemma of whether or not to manipulate, and I'm sure the quality of the land deters certain architects from taking a job (where they have the luxury).  To others, I'm sure such matters are not as perplexing.

It does present an interesting challenge to an architect -
Where the architect makes the decision to move massive amounts of earth - the architect who is presented with a marvelous piece of land (acknowledging the subjectivity of that conclusion), had better produce an absolute superlative product. He has a much narrower margin of error than the architect who makes the same decision on a non-descript parcel.

As for discerning what is manufactured from what isn't - I agree that it is largely irrelevant.

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 6
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2004, 03:51:54 PM »
Pat,

Would Lawsonia help make the point? What a great course.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2004, 04:34:43 PM »
RJ

I agree with your comments about Eddie Hackett.  The guy doesn't get his propers!  I can't imagine anything called Wild Horse etc etc that can compete with Carne, but as I say, I will never find out.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale