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Mark Brown

I believe that most of us recognize some well-known, and not so well known, architects who have moved course design back (and forward) to some of the classical design principles that characterized the golden era of architecture.

This movement started somewhere in the early 90s and continues to gain momentum.

If you had to pick 10 courses that would give a new design student a well-rounded overview of this style and era of design what courses would you choose.

I'll risk taking a shot at it. It's not life or death, or is it?

1.Sand Hills -- grand scale, natural, in the middle of nowhere

2.Pacific Dunes -- a true seaside links reminiscent of the home of golf

3. Wild Horse -- open to the public, affordable

4. Wolf Run -- parkland, use of rolling terrain, shot-making.

5. Bandon Trails --unique mixture of linksland and heathland type holes

6.Cuscowilla -- use of trees and some water as hazards, significant changes in elevation, creative greensites.

7. Plantation at Kapalua -- setting, grand scale, use of terrain, wind considerations.

8. Kokopelli -- Illinois, excellent low budget daily-fee course, very affordable.

9. Bulls Bay-- wide open, wide fairways to maximize angles and risk-reward strategy, greens at grade level

10. Apache Stronghold(?) unique desert environment

Obviously, there's many I left out and others I haven't played, particularly west of the Mississippi

Need some help, but you must say why they're significant must-plays. Hit me with your best shot.

SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
some of the classical design principles that characterized the golden era of architecture.

3. Wild Horse -- open to the public, affordable

6.Cuscowilla -- use of trees and some water as hazards, significant changes in elevation, creative greensites.

8. Kokopelli -- Illinois, excellent low budget daily-fee course, very affordable.

10. Apache Stronghold(?) unique desert environment


Mark - A fine list, but how do the qualities you cited from the courses I culled out of your list characterize the golden age of architecture? Desert? Daily-Fee? Use of trees and water?  :P  ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

No respect for Friar's Head from Mark Brown......No Rustic Canyon either!

ian

Mark,

Some comments:

-The Golf Club should be the first.
-I would select High Pointe first over Doak's other work, but that's just me.
-Bandon Trails -- ???? You can't include something that is not open
-Your missing Rustic Canyon, and I personally think that may be the ultimate answer to future golf.
-Why is Bandon Dunes not on the list when the other two are?

JakaB



Minimalist/renaissance in my own Southern Illinois....and to think I've been missing it...Hey Mark...could you tell me one thing about the place that is minimalist or part of a renaissance when carts are mandatory and it ain't affordable by Southern Illinois standards.....I would bet it is one of the most expensive daily fee and semi privates in all of Southern Illinois....I look forward to playing it but I like to know why it is on this list except for any reason but your relationship with Smyers...

If you want very affordable Southern Illinois golf look to Oak Glen in Stoy Illinois where the cost is all of $5 for 18 to walk with an optional $7.50 cart fee....
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 01:00:44 AM by John B. Kavanaugh »

blasbe1


If you had to pick 10 courses that would give a new design student a well-rounded overview of this style and era of design what courses would you choose.

I'll risk taking a shot at it. It's not life or death, or is it?

1.Sand Hills -- grand scale, natural, in the middle of nowhere

2.Pacific Dunes -- a true seaside links reminiscent of the home of golf

I've not played Sand Hills but have salivated over many photos and Pacific Dunes is, to date, my favorite played course.  

I will suggest that neither is minimal, as you note regarding Sand Hills "grand scale."

Therefore, I think the first two examples you raise reveal the the fundemental flaw with the phrase "minimalism" even if the GCA worked first with the land and second with the machine.

I think it's mostly a short coming of language and lack of discussion on this topic, which is the reason I welcome the thread despite it's sycaphantical tendencies . . .

What is minimal, really . . . ?

       

Tyler Kearns

  • Total Karma: 0
Jason,

My guess; very little earthwork to achieve the final design, or the appearance of minimal earthwork to complete the course. Whether it be by design or by Mother Nature, minimalist golf courses tend to look like they belong to the environment they are situated in - simply, they just look right!!

TK

blasbe1

Tyler:

I think many would say that of TPC Sawgrass, certainly I say it of the River Course at Kholer and I dare say certain parts of the Straights course look awefully natural if I didn't know the history of the land.  Last I looked nobody has called Dye a minimalist.  

This touches on a point raised by others on other threads, which is basically how much of GCA is based on physical perception and how much is based on pre-formed mental impression?

With the ubiquitous issue of course ratings I think we're running out of definitional room and need to seriously consider revising the current jargon to make better intellectual sense of what we play, see, design, etc.

Thoughts from the Treehouse?      

Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
I would have thought that Rustic Canyon was the most minimalistic design of every course built or design in the last ten years in America, no?

Is there any other course that managed to move so little in relation to producing so much over the pond?

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
I didn't realise that the price of a round was a tenet of classic architecture.  It is very important me, but I'm not a classic!

How about Kingsbarns and perhaps even Doonbeg?  At least Kingsbarns must be fairly high on the list.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

TEPaul

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2004, 05:50:46 AM »
I have two definitions for minimlism but maybe not many agree--

The first is the site is pretty much used as it was--eg little of the site is moved---

The second, is no matter how much earth was moved it's very hard for even an astute eye to tell it was---

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 21
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2004, 06:49:36 AM »
Mark:  No offense, but I think you're the only person on the planet who would include the two Smyers courses.

I think High Pointe deserves to be on there somewhere.  And St. Andrews Beach is probably the best example we've done ... the least work to build a golf course.

Doonbeg maybe; Kingsbarns definitely not, it's all manufactured ... very well done, but it has nothing to do with minimalism.

The fact that people nominated Kingsbarns and Whistling Straits is ample proof that lots of people don't understand minimalism at all.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2004, 06:50:05 AM »
Jason - if Sand Hills doesn't qualify for minimal I don't know what does.  Are you aware that Ben and Bill have said that one hole at SH was built for $300?  They literally seeded a natural area for a tee and green and presto - one hole on the best modern golf course in America was "created".  

A piece of land so ready for a golf course and an architect who recognizes this is a good start on a definition of the minimalist approach.

JC    
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 07:36:01 AM by Jonathan »

Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2004, 07:28:08 AM »
Sean,

I played Doonbeg about a month ago and loved it but there is a lot of shaky fakey stuff there and would not class it as minimal.

Kingsbarns is definately not minimalist...

Jason,

How much more minimal than Sand Hills do you want to get?  No cut grass?

Brian
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 07:29:49 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2004, 09:39:19 AM »
Perhaps this has been hashed out before on this site, but could someone please give a definition of minimilism that we can all agree on?

It seems like there are two schools of thought at the heart of this thread. One is assessing the appearance of the course, the other considers the amount of earth moved in the construction process. I would say that the first group can be defined as naturalists (does the finished product blend into the surrounding land?). Such a group might hold that the ends (a terrific, natural-looking course) justify the means (moving tons of earth i.e., Straights).

The second group I would call pure minimalists, and include architects who construct natural courses with a minimum of engineering (i.e., Rustic Canyon).

Both styles of architecture have their own challenges. The naturalist might be called on to transform an otherwise uninteresting piece of land into a masterpiece (much like the folks at Pixar do with their computer animation—cool, but ultimately an illusion). The minimalist must start at the selection of the property and conceive of a routing that makes best use of the natural contours of the land.

I am probably stating the obvious, but does this distinction make sense?

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2004, 09:44:51 AM »
I am not at all surprised by the lack of understanding of minimalism on my part.  It's (in golf arhitecture) concepts don't seem to coincide with the minimalist concepts of architecture. Is there an agreed upon working definition?  Please, somebody give me a quick 5 point lesson and contrast them with a 5 point lesson of classic architecture.  This is a serious request, I am not at all taking the piss.

My impression of a minamalist course is moving little ground or leaving the impression of small amonts of land being shifted.  When I look (toward the sea) at Kingsbarns, it looks like it belongs there.  I reckon if I were to look from the seaside inland (I never have), perhaps it may look out of place.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Mingay

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2004, 10:18:09 AM »
Tom Doak:

I looked over Ben Dewar's photos from his recent visit to St. Andrews Beach and was very impressed with the lay-of-the-land nature of the golf course. VERY IMPRESSED.

As per Ben's photos, St. Andrews Beach exhibits an elegant simplicity only a few other golf courses throughout the world possess. That's my initial impression, anyway.

Nice work. I can't wait to get there in person. Your trio of courses down there - St. Andrews Beach, Barnbougle, and Kidnappers - makes such a trip even more attractive these days.  
jeffmingay.com

JakaB

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2004, 10:31:53 AM »
Is anybody else sick of the +$30 courses being touted as affordable....Wild Horse is a full ten bucks higher than its neighbor Cozad CC.....Rustic is more than Pacific Grove...I just played a Doak for $17....anything more than a buck a hole is a luxury and should not be pushed off as a renaissance in value...

Ken Fry

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2004, 11:02:51 AM »
Dave,

I haven't met you yet, but if you exhibit similarities to Posh Spice, we need to talk.

Wolf Run is a great course, but "minimalist design" has never crossed my mind when I play it either!!

Ken

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2004, 11:10:47 AM »
 If the rocks are real it's "minimalist";if they are fake it is not ::)
AKA Mayday

Bob_Huntley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2004, 11:19:32 AM »
Let's go the the replay booth, oops I mean Merriam.

Main Entry: min·i·mal·ism
Pronunciation: 'mi-n&-m&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : MINIMAL ART
2 : a style or technique (as in music, literature, or design) that is characterized by extreme spareness and simplicity.

In that case I nominate Beit Bridge G.C. in Zimbabwe. Flat as a pancake, no grass and oiltreated sand greens. Simply an awful golf course but I played it, because it was there.

Minimal does not neccessarily mean good.

blasbe1

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2004, 11:31:10 AM »

Minimal does not neccessarily mean good.

That's part of what I'm trying to get at, we've gotten so keyed into "minimalism" as a GCA concept it can both lose meaning and relative importance if we're not very careful how we discuss it.  

TPaul said it quite well that minimal GCA primarily uses the land as it is and so all the comments about little earth moving are right on in that respect.  

But a related point is that while little earth may be moved the site itself may be anything but minimal, ala Sand Hills.  The bunker short right of 7 green at Pacific Dunes and all down the right side of 13 are other dramatic examples of the natural that are in no aesthetic sense "minimal."

So I guess that's a bit of a long winded way of saying minimal GCA is more a design approach than an end product because if the approach is minimal the product necessarily relies upon the site, and to a great extent more than a non-minimalist approach.  

Not to break off on a tangent but how much success of minimalist design is basically luck of the draw regarding inherent site quality?  I've heard this debate before but is it possible that Whistling Straights is a better design than Cuscowilla for that very reason, it arguably required more architectual heavy lifting?    

Brad Swanson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2004, 11:33:46 AM »
Redanman,
   Have you played City Park GC after its recent renovations? Its been absolutely transformed! :o :P ;)

Cheers,
Brad Swanson


JSlonis

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Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2004, 11:37:15 AM »
Sean,

Kingsbarns was 100% "manufactured" so as to appear "natural".  Here's a womanly analogy to help with the golf architecture definition of stylistic minimalism:

Audrey Hepburn- Minimalistic ;D
Pamela Anderson- NOT  ;)

« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 02:24:20 PM by JSlonis »

blasbe1

Re:10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2004, 11:38:44 AM »

Minimal does not neccessarily mean good.

The bunker short right of 7 green at Pacific Dunes
   

I meant to say short left.