Flagstick Height?

[Mike_Young]

A couple of tour players have told me that shorter flagsticks on approaches of less than 100 yards create a problem for them in the hand/eye coordination department and can create difficulty in feel shots.  All of us become used to a standard for determining distance even when we have a specific yardage.  The mind can play games when this standard takes on a different dimension.  I think the same can be said for disproportionate bunkers etc.  
Do you think it matters to the average player???  I do.

[Mark Brown]

Mike,

I don't have a problem with 6 foot pins vs. 7 foot, but the deception bunkers that Ross and others, including some of today's architects use have given me major problems with depth perception the first time I play a course. I like these types of bunkers as well as bunkers or mounds that hide part of the green. I think it adds another dimension to the skill and creativity of a player. You have to trust your swing for different yardages.

[Bill_McBride]

Absolutely.  Our minds are programmed for a full-length flagstick.  Anything shorter -- anything, regardless of how well you can see the green -- looks farther away than it is.

[Mike_Young]

Then would you guys agree that flagstick height can be considered a form of strategy???

[Joe Hancock]

As an aside,would it be "unfair" to use flagsticks of varying heights on a golf course? Mean for sure, but what about unfair?

Joe

[Jeff_Brauer]

At Shadow Creek in Vegas, Fazio spec'd out a reduced height flagstick on the 11th, continually diminished the size of the bunkers down the hole, and also reduced green size to create a "forced perspective" on the hole.  It is VERY effective at making the approach shot appear longer.

I suspect that most golfers would say it is "unfair" as I have heard complaints about the little ball top/middle/bottom to distinguish pin position being slightly off being unfair.  I further suspect that if you varied the pins every day, one day with extra short, then standard, then extra long, they would really go nuts!

It will mess with your perspective, but is that a good technique, or is it not?

[Doug Siebert]

As an aside,would it be "unfair" to use flagsticks of varying heights on a golf course? Mean for sure, but what about unfair?

Joe

If it is, then I've played a lot of "unfair" courses across the pond!

[Mark Brown]

No. Use land forms and bunkers to create deception and uncertainty. They're natural features.

[Paul_Turner]

When they get stuck, they're good at poking out your eye.

[Joe Hancock]

No. Use land forms and bunkers to create deception and uncertainty. They're natural features.

Mark,

Are bunkers really a natural feature on 99.9% of the golf courses that have bunkers? Are flagsticks really that much different? Suere, they aren't natural, but they are neccessary...or are they?

Now we can talk true deception if we can get the golfers around withouth the line-giving, wind-indicating flagsticks! (Insert evil laugh)......

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I used to spec shorter flagsticks [seven feet to the bottom of the hole] on all my early courses.  I wasn't trying to deceive golfers, I just thought they looked better with the flag more at eye level as is common overseas.

It's particularly helpful to have short flags on courses where a lot of earth is moved.  The difference of a foot at the green is a bit more at the background behind the green, so it's often the difference between the flag being profiled against the mounding [or natural backdrop] vs. the top line of the mounding or just above the horizon line, both of which are very disorienting to me.

[james soper]

i remember the caddies at secession telling me the club used the shorter flagsticks because it was extremely windy and the longer flagsticks wouldn't fair so well with the blustery conditions. if that were the case, why wouldn't you see them at the  links courses throughout scotland and ireland.
maybe the architect utilizes the short sticks  because s/he doesn't want the player to correctly gage the ferocity of the wind. thus it would serve as a deterrent to scoring, much like the wicker basket. problem is you still have the flag.

[Mark_Amundson]

Mike:

I would say that shorter flagsticks defintely make a difference and I think it is a great way to make golfers think.  We have 5 ft. flagsticks at Sutton Bay on our Par 3 course.  When people play it for the first time they will not trust the yardages on the card.  The 8th is 139 yards and I ask people how far it is and they usually say 160 or so.  This concept points out how important vertical orientation is to our brain and how challenging links courses can be when there are no trees to give your brain some help.  I get told repeatedly how difficult it is to club correctly at Sutton Bay and I believe it is because they have no trees to give them feedback.  Furthermore, trees also give your brain information as to elevation/how much uphill or downhill shots are.  People do not seem to be able to discern between a shot that is 15 ft. uphill or one that is flat or slightly downhill when there is nothing around them to give their brain feedback.  I think an architect can use this flaw to create challenges in their design.  Anyone agree/disagree?

Mark

[Mike_Young]

Glad to see that most of us agree regarding using flag stick height as a deception, strategy or however one may describe it.  Whether it be taller or shorter, I do think it makes a difference.  After all, strategy is just an excercise in creating  indecision in the mental aspect of the game.

[mike_beene]

help,its a giant!

[Doug Siebert]

i remember the caddies at secession telling me the club used the shorter flagsticks because it was extremely windy and the longer flagsticks wouldn't fair so well with the blustery conditions. if that were the case, why wouldn't you see them at the  links courses throughout scotland and ireland.

You do have them at most of the links.  On some courses they are all (or almost all) short, and others they are only short on the really exposed greens.  And of course you sometimes have some really tall ones on greens that are partially blind.

Feel the material they make them out of on those links sometime.  It is a lot thicker, almost like a nylon canvas, as opposed to the flimsy material often used over here where 50+ mph winds generally happen only when a thunderstorm is rolling through, rather than all day long several times a week.  Takes a lot more to get those thick flags really whipping, but they still whip in those strong winds pretty well.

During my visit to Ireland this summer, about half of our group of a dozen was losing their links golf cherry.  I recall one mentioning to me on the second day at Old Head that he kept getting fooled about how strong the wind really was because the flagstick wasn't bending and the flag wasn't really whipping wildly.  I told him to feel the flag and check out the diameter of the flagstick, and compare it to courses back home with those flags as thin as parachutes and pencil-like flagsticks.  Since the 25-30 mph we saw at Old Head was merely a light breeze, he got to the flagsticks really going crazy the next day at Tralee with winds of 50-60 mph

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks to Eric -- an image from the NYPL



Golf Links, Hotel Champlain, Bluff Point, N.Y.

In:"The Pageant of America" Collection > v.15 - Annals of American sport >  (Published photographs)

Library Division:Humanities and Social Sciences Library / Photography Collection, Miriam and Ira D. Wallach Division of Art, Prints and Photographs

Item/Page/Plate Number:15.681

Notes:From a photograph by the Delaware and Hudson Co., Albany.
Digital ID:101791

[Paul Richards]

The Reserve in Myrtle Beach has these very short pins.  After playing 36 earlier in the day at courses with 'normal' sized pins, it sure does mess with you to see these mini-pins.  Every approach shot looks like you are much further away than you really are.  

Perhaps the PGA Tour could do this as well - each week, make the host course put in 6 mini's, 6 regulars and 6 extra tall pins - and see if the scores on Tour change ...