St. Louis CC Restoration

[Hunt]

As some of you know, SLCC is undertaking a restoration project under the guidance of Brian Silva. Some changes are under consideration while a few have already been implemented.

My goal here is to go over these holes in more detail and provide a forum for discussion on the MacDonald theory and how it applies to the modern game.

A theme throughout the SLCC restoration is the removal of many trees that have been planted over the years that don't fit the profile of the golf course. Gift/Donations programs have provided for many different types of trees over the last few years;well intentioned but not conducive to the enhancement of the course.

Another is the return of many bunkers filled in during WWI and WWII. This was done at the time to save money during the war effort.

Many bunkers at SLCC have lost impact over the generations so a redefining of their edges is required. In addition, many of the greens will be brought back to original size.

We'll start with the first hole: Prepatory Par 4 400 yards:

I'll disagree with the review on SLCC on this website as to the flatness of the opening hole. It is a straight hole, to be sure, however it is downhill and the fairway actually takes your ball from right to left if you hit a tee shot near the center.

What is proposed is a shift of the fairway and return to its original "Hard Edge" to better capture this movement and improve the shot value of the approach (over a large bunker)

This shift in the fairway will require more rough on the right and the planting of two trees. It also requires the removal of 12 trees on the left that are bunched together in the new fairway.

Brian believes that the green needs to be extended approx 10 feet from its current front and the pines behind the green removed and a restored bunker be put in its place.

Overall, I like the fairway shift as it appears to be in line with the original design and incorporates better use of the natural terrain in creating an improved shot value on the approach.

The removal of trees and the bunker modifications are good. The only question I would have is why to plant two trees to the right? A row of trees line this hole and separates the golf course from the road. The addition of two more outside that line does not seem to stand up to the test of being historically accurate nor does it add additional value as a result of the modern game.

A map of the above will be posted soon.

[ChipOat]

Come in George Bahto.  Are you familiar enough with what's going on to comment for the record?

Has Brian Silva been involved with any MacDonald/Raynor restorations before this?

Hunt:

Looking forward to as much detail and maps as you have the time to post.

Are you able to disclose why you're so familiar with the details?

Are you able to opine on the record?

[Tyler Kearns]

Chipoat,
      Brian Silva has restored Mountain Lake GC, a Seth Raynor design in South Carolina. There's a thread about the work dating back a couple of days. The look is awfully geometric and engineered, but was an attempt at faithful restoration. Further, I think Silva's Black Creek is a Raynor-inspired design of his, thus he seems to have a great deal of interest for Mr. Raynor, one can only hope he has studied well.

Tyler Kearns

[ChipOat]

Tyler Kearns:

Sounds like Brian Silva's other CBM/SR work is OK by you.  Is that a correct interpretation?  If so, that gives me comfort.

FYI, Mountain Lakes is not far from Orlando, FL.  Is that the course you were referring to?  There is a Raynor course in SC named Yeaman's Hall that was impressively restored in the last 3 years, or so (according to those who have seen it).  Was Brian Silva involved with that work?  Is that the course you meant?

[RJ_Daley]

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/addressimage.aspx?t=1&s=11&lon=-90.3756251173333&lat=38.65035615035&alon=-90.38077585&alat=38.64982546&w=1&ref=A%7c4
00+Barnes+Rd%2c+St+Louis%2c+MO+63124

I take it, the first hole is that one heading due south with the straight line of trees next to that road.  If I understand correctly, the fairway is going to be given a bit of an orientation for tee ball to run left on line of play down to an LZ, with the clump of trees further down fairway left taken out on line of play to open up the green guraded by large open faced bunker, and give the entire hole a slight bend left to right.  I think Silva must have in mind the practice ground on the immediate left and orient the player on the first tee from shanking onto the teeing line.  It sounds like he wants the layer to let the ground take him down to the left LZ with the same straight ball off tee and catching the down slope speed ramp starting in the middle of the fairway as you describe.  It looks like the clump of trees up the far left was also put there to protect #2tee.  It seems like a difficult task for Silva since there doesn't appear to be much room for separation and safety.  Those must be difficult questions and considerations for the committee and Silva.

[john stiles]

Silva also did restoration at Lookout Mountain in Georgia near Chattanooga Tennesee. His work at Lookout Mountain led to the new course at Black Creek (Silva/Raynor tribute), on land originally sought for The Honors.

Tom Doak worked on Yeaman Hall restoration as well as Camargo and other Raynors.

[Hunt]

Chipoat,

I am a member and taking interest in the project as it infolds.

RJ,

You are correct in your statements above. The drive from #1 under this proposal (not yet enacted) will not interfere with the practice range. You are correct that the trees between #1 and #2 serve as a buffer however the 12 trees in question are not the entire line and should not detract from the safety on #2 Tee.

One thing we wrestle with is the lack of good imagery pre-1940. The last 100 years have seen lots of trees put in and it is difficult to establish what was original. The example between #1 and #2 is one of many in that regard.

[David A.]

Should be interesting to see what Mr. Silva will do with that magnificent course, my favorite in St. Louis!  I belong to another course nearby, which has had extensive revisions done by Cornish and Silva (mostly Silva, I believe) which have been well received.  

[Tyler Kearns]

Chipoat,
       Your right, the Mountain Lake course I was referring to is in the Orlando area. I have not played it, and only seen the few pictures posted on this site. If only their were some comparison pictures, then it would be possible for me to critically assess Silva's work there. I was not attempting to analyse his work, only stating that he has done Raynor-restoration work before, so don't start feeling too comfortable. Again, from the pictures I saw, the course seemed a little geometric to me, but that is not entirely out of charcter with the Raynor/MacDonald/Banks crew. His tribute to the Raynor/Macdonald partnership, Black Creek, has been well recieved, and the course (again from pictures) looks great, and could easily pass for an original. In my mind, that means he has a great deal of respect for thier work, and has emulated it carefully. Thus, I would assume he'd do a faithful restoration at St. Louis CC.

Tyler Kearns

[ChipOat]

Tyler Kearns:

Thanks for the clarification.  Last I heard, the Mountain Lakes restoration was still a work in progress.  Perhaps George Bahto or others know how that's going.

Also, will now reveal my strictly amateur status on this DG by going public with my ignorance about Black Creek.  Where is it?  Has there ever been a thread about it on GCA?  Does it deserve one?  Have you played it?  Have you played other CBM/SR courses for comparison?  Should we go out of our way to play it?

[Paul Richards]

Can't wait to see St. Louis CC after its restoration.  It was a helluva course even before it!

[herrstein]

Chipoat:
Silva has also done restoration at Fox Chapel, where the Curtis Cup was played this past year, in addition to Lookout Mountain and Mountain Lake (which is now complete and is the subject of another thread on this site.) He also completely rebuilt The Everglades Club in Palm Beach FL, which had been completely made over, in the Raynor style.
I am the contractor from Lookout Mountain and Black Creek, where I am also an owner. Both are in Chattanooga.
I have played StLCC several times and made some good friends there, some of whom have come (and are coming again) to visit me and these courses in Chattanooga. I think StLCC is one of the very coolest of all joints, and have been very encouraged by my conversations with members there about Silva's plans. Certainly, tree removal is atop the list. The changes you reference re the 1st hole are in my understanding more in keeping with the original design....and what a Cape the 8th could be without those trees!
My advice to the Club would be as CB Macdonalds' advice was to Chicago GC in 1923: let the architect do his work. The most knowledgeable members of the Club can then make their arguments, but committees have a notoriously bad track record when it comes to working on courses, even their own.
At LMGC I was chair of the Greens committee when the work was done there; I advised the committee and the membership (and minded my own advice) that we could argue all we wanted with Silva (or whomever we selected), but at the end of the day, the architect had the final say. Doing anything else is essentially a waste of the Club's money and the architect's time.
Tom Doak did the work at Yeamans Hall and it is first rate, too. I don't have any doubt that there are a couple more architects who could do a credible job, but once the selection is made, it's best to defer to the expert hired for the work.
This site is a Petri dish of people who question every nuance of an architect's work, especially restorations of established gems like St. Louis. Whatever is done, it will not meet with everyone's approval. But anyone who claims to know what Raynor or Macdonald would have done is essentially making the same claim as the roadside palm reader.
I engage in the conversations on a limited basis, in the spirit of fun and for the sake of argument, but at the end of the day I think it's best to defer to a guy with an established track record who does this stuff for a living.
St. Louis has hired an expert; he'll do a good job.
If you want to know more about Black Creek and Lookout, drop me a private e-mail and I'll let you know some guys at your Club who know the courses.

[herrstein]

Oops- sorry- should have addressed that last to Hunt...

[Biarritz]

This may be alittle right wing but here we go. GEORGE BAHTO where are you ? All of you MacDonald/Raynor enthusiasts out there need to find a way to clone Tom Doak and Jim Urbina. They are the only ones who should be aloud to TOUCH a course designed by either. I do not know Brian Silva personally and this is not an attack against him but any of you who have played The Creek, Piping Rock, Yeamans Hall, NGLA, Chicago or Shoreacres show me more than one bunker on any of these courses that you can see sand coming halfway up the face of a bunker. You can't. The sand in the bunkers are flat and the grass of the face runs down to the flat sand surface. Urbina doesn't want to see any sand in bunkers around the greens. If you have played any of these courses show me bunkers that have straight edges running across the top. The reason that these courses are great is because they look NATURAL. Judging by pictures (which doesn't alays tell you the truth) Mr. Silva's rendition at Mountain Lake does not look natural. At Yeamans Hall we are lucky enough to have topo plans from 1928 with every green, bunker, fairway width, and green contour. Where are the sharp edges. Every green on our blue prints have squared off greens. We have pictures of holes from the late '20's and 30's and the tops of the bunkers are not straight. As a matter of fact, the mounding on the top if the bunkers were used for directional purposes. St. Louis CC PLEASE look at or play other MacDonald/Raynor courses that have been untouched for the most part and try to model tour course after them. Don't become a victim like MLCC, and Fox Chapel. If you want to see his work look at Blackcreekcc.com, mountainlakecc.com and please re-evaluate where you are going. My guess is that the trees at your course are encroaching on your course and need to be pulled out. Leave your specimen trees because they are the trees on the property in the '10's and '20's. I'm sorry if this is abrasive but come on and let's not be afraid to say what we really want to say. Geometric looks manufactured and not NATURAL.

[CHrisB]

Biarritz,
I want to understand you a little better, so I'll post some
pictures of Black Creek and Mountain Lake from the websites
you mentioned, and also some pictures from Yeamans Hall,
the only course among those you listed that I have
played.  Can you point out what it is you like about the
bunkers in the Yeamans Hall pictures and what you dislike
about the others?  Thanks! CB

Here are some pictures from Black Creek:




And from Mountain Lake:




Now here's some of Yeamans Hall:

[Scott Wicker]

ChrisB,

I would have thought that the glaring differences in style would have negated the need to label those pictures.  But now that I have seen them all together...........

[Hunt]

Herrstein-

The 8th has already been cleared on the right side. A few trees still remain. The way it is currently played, you can cross a small bridge and play an approach if you hit the dreaded "hard fade" but must contend with those few trees. A wedge is your best option as you have to contend with the bunker from about 70-100 yards. That option may not be available and then you are playing a chip out to the fairway or a low percentage runner that will most likely collect in a bunker if you don't play just short of the green. You will see some pars and even a birdie now and then from this position. Bogey is the most likely result.

I concur with your assessment of committees and the architect. Let me make this clear: we are very pleased with the choice of Mr. Silva and the Master Plan and look forward to his restoration effort.

My intention is not to argue the merits of the decision to go with Silva. My intention is to share the results of his work with those interested in the field.

I am a fan of the CBM/SR design and enjoy the discussion on the topic. I have no background in design but appreciate the final product.

[MBL]

Herrstein-

I don't buy the "let the architect do his work" when referencing the restoration(s) of classic courses.  

CBM, with his reference to Chicago GC in 1923: let the architect do his work, was referencing the building of a course in which (IMHO) the designer/archie should be trusted and given free reign (see his issues with Sleepy Hollow in which he was significantly constrained by the members/client/committee).  That said, I FULLY agree that when the architect is/was hired to build a course - let him build the course.

However, in 'restoring' classical gems, attention to original intent, initial strategic goals, routing and green complexes are paramount.....a restoration is just that: restoring the original.  Too many 'experts' -- many of whom are all too often villified on this very DG -- want to leave their own "mark" on the course, thusly being less than true to the original intent.  Therefore, whatever club/committee (PARTICULARLY THAT OF SLCC) must be extra careful that the expert hired is strictly conforming to original intent and relying upon, not only aerials, but as much research/info as possible.  

Paging George Bahto, paging George Bahto.....

[Bye]

MB Lewis, What is it that you're looking for from George Bahto?

[MBL]

Bye- Historical context.


And btw (no pun intended), far be it for me to knock the work of Brian Silva - he is clearly an accomplished architect with an excellent track record - that in no way was my intention with the above post.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Chip,

Black Creek has been mentioned quite a few times on GCA, including several of it's own threads.  Have you looked at the course profiles lately?  Black Creek's is here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/blackcreek.html

[ChipOat]

Scott:

I really only pay attention to the DG although Ran has encouraged me often to broaden my horizon.  Thanks for your continued hard work on AOTD in addition to the link on Black Creek.

Chip

[Biarritz]

CB-

My reply to those pics is the first one at Black Creek is the Short hole and it looks like a spaceship has landed. The bunkers are alot wider than what I have seen and very straight lined. If you look at the last picture of YHC that is the back bunker of their Short hole. Note A: the depth and B: how the bunker goes with the green in regards to waviness and C: the width of the bunker and D: the flatness of the bottom of the bunker.

Picture #2 of the redan style green at black creek looks good to me. Steep and deep and not to wide.

Picture #3 of my namesake has bunkers that are almost as wide as half of the green. Note that the first bunker goes along with the natural contour of the green.  

Picture #5- is the redan at ML. Did they move the tee to the right. That (to me) doesn't look like the correct angle into the redan. Does the green incorporate the entire rightside or is it rounded off? that cross bunker short of the green is not steep or deep. The early pix at YHC of our bunkers infront of redan you can not see the sand. The front left bunker sand looks sloped up toward the green. look at the pix of YHC and see how low the grass goes down the face of the bunkers and look at the back of each bunkers and how the grass slopes toward the sand.

You picked some great examples of geometric shape by Silva. I know his stuff is new but (to me) it doesn't have that natural been their for years look.

Hopefully, I'll figyre out how to post our pix from 1937 and you will not see geometric shape and you will not see a lot of sand 100 yards from the bunkers but what you will see is Raynors Style.