Antiquated Courses

[Jerry Kluger]

What courses do you know of that have become antiquated due to the modern ball/equipment with respect to other than the top echelon players?  Is the course simply defenseless because of the ball/equipment or is it because of the conditioning?  Or is this whole issue simply limited to the very best players and the other 99.9% really can enjoy the great courses without finding them defenseless to their game?  Merion as originally designed might not have enough length for the very best players, but what about the rest of us?  And if it is played hard and fast with firm greens and significant rough, who but the absolute top players is going to feel that it is defenseless?  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am not sure of a course that cannot be adapted with the aid of a little rough or green spped that would fit the title of antiquated.

I can however tell you that the talk of Merion not standing up to the modern play is a falicy.
You could hold a US Open at any time at Merion and the winning score would be of US open quality.
I think if Jamie Slonis reads this , he will agree, that the green set up for the second round of last year's Wilson Invitational would ceratinly take care of any low scoring.
They have the ability to set up that course to handle all comers..with emphasis on set up.... not trick up.
Between fairway width, severity of rough, green complex design and speed, it is very much still US open quality.
Do not be surprised if it gets another Open either..perhaps 2012.
I believe the USGA are considering several 'throwback' venues on a decade rotation..as they feel the monies generated from the likes of Bethpage and Torrey Pines,  will be sufficient to make up for lost attendence revenues if the Open is held at a venue like Merion.

[Jerry Kluger]

So if I am right about Merion, then I still am looking for a course which is antiquated to the point that it is no longer enjoyable or cannot defend itself against low scoring other than the very top players.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

You are almost roght about Merion..I am saying it is not antiquated at all..I dont care how good you are..and that includes the like of the best on the tour.

I am still racking my brain to come up with an answer for you.
I feel that CPC might fit into that category, but we will never find out!!!
Toward the end of its stint as a tour stop, it was yielding the lowest scores on the Crosby rotation, but there again if the wind blows, I do not think it fits your criteria anymore!!

[Jerry Kluger]

I'm just talking about non-professionals.  I'm talking about a top course where you could become a member and might decide not to join because the course is antiquated and no longer challenging.  

[jeffwarne]

Sorry guys,but it's sad that the game(and our mindsets) have gotten to the point where par "has to be defended" by extreme rough or course setups
Regardless of what scores were shot at an Open at Merion in the near future,the nature of the game would be different,with players hitting irons or hybrids on holes that previously were 3 woods or drivers
Or if the players hit drivers successfully,the shots they would face would be significantly different than what they would face with a ball rollback to 1980 levels
I'm pissing into the wind here as golf courses have faced obsolescence through technology throughout history,but let's not let a high score achieved through dubious conditioning and setup fool us into thinking the line doesn't need to be drawn

That said,I'd love to see the Open come back to Merion(with or without a ball rollback)prepared with a reasonable setup(or even an unreasonable setup if that what it takes to convince them to bring it back to Merion),and I wouldn't care what they shot

The phrase "a score of US Open quality" might need to be replaced with "a score of US Open lunacy"

[TEPaul]

Jerry Kluger:

I can pretty much tell you that no matter what some think of Merion East as being obsolete due to modern equipment if the course was set up correctly (not over the top) and with it's new additional yardage the golf course even in a US Open would not be defenseless at all. People who only look at the course in a total card yardage sense just don't understand the course. From the tips at Merion if the course was set up well there aren't that many amateurs who would do very well on that course and in a tournament set-up it would hold its own against the best. Even the USGA analysis of it that seemed to determine top players would have too many wedge approaches isn't very accurate either in estimating a resulting score, in my opinion.

[Jerry Kluger]

TEP: You got the wrong sense out of my message.  I think I'm a pretty decent player with an index in the 8.5 range and I have yet to play a course which I think is antiquated because of equipment or condition.  My point is that I think many people talk a good game but the fact of the matter is that there aren't any quality courses I've seen that I wouldn't want to be a member of because I don't think it is challenging enough.  I think there are too many people out there who are demeaning toward some courses simply because the very best players in the world can overpower them.  For me, I have yet to find one person who could look me in the eye and say they wouldn't join a course which is on par with Merion, simply because they believe it is antiquated.   In reality, there aren't that many golfers who can carry a ball more than 240 yards in the air and presuming they get 20 yards of roll, a 440 or 450 yard par 4 can still be very intimidating.  I don't have to tell you that a hole can be very interesting and strategically challenging without being a 480 yard par 4 or a 230 yard par 3.  Most amateurs don't hit the ball any longer than the players on the LPGA tour and they don't need a 7400 yard course to be challenged. The conclusion I have reached is that the concerns that people are having claiming that the classical courses are becoming antiquated is bunk except for the very best players in the world.  For the rest of us mortals, the 6400 yard par 70 or 6750 yard par 72 course is plenty when other aspects are factored in.

[TEPaul]

Jerry:

I completely agree with what you said in your last post. There may be a number of people, even people on here who think Merion East is antiquated and not the challenge it once might have been. In my opinion, they're simply wrong and probably because they really just don't understand Merion East or perhaps even this entire subject. There may be a good number of amateur golfers who hit the ball farther or believe they do but I really do doubt it's being significantly reflected in better scoring.

[SPDB]

I recently played with a group that did PV one day and Merion the next, in exactly the same weather conditions very dry and fast. Some of the guys were real good, top college players who will likely stand a good chance at qualifying for the US Am there.

PV was from the tips, Merion was a mixed bag, but definitely not the new all the way back tees. To a man, each of them agreed that Merion was the tougher test. One guy went 69 at PV and 78 at Merion.

[Tony Petersen]

  Myopia is REALLY short, but the hazards and greens keep the playing field level for all but the best... What a grand club!!!

[TEPaul]

SPDB;

That's right in line with the longtime perception around here . The feeling has been that Merion East has always been harder to score on than PV for the good player. John Ott belonged to Merion for decades and has lived at PV for decades has always said that. The reasons why that is would be interesting to discuss in detail. It seems to me both can be set-up for tournaments in such a way that players don't exactly feel is "over the top" where some really good precision golf and even better thinking is required to score decently on either. Certainly the fairways of Merion East are not so wide as PV and at times Merion has had some very penal rough. Both courses have truly great and pretty complicated greens where three putting can be likely or regularly getting up and down around the greens is hard.

I'd like to hear from some of our contributors on here such as Jamie Slonis or Michael Wharton-Palmer who play in both the Hugh Wilson and the Crump Cup as to why exactly Merion East may be harder to score on. Both courses are par 70 of about the same overall length, with some really good long par 4s and some really short par 4s as well as two par 5s each which are functionally extremely hard even for the good long player to reach in two shots.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom-

  What makes Merion's par fives so resistant to scoring?  I've only seen this course from Ardmore Avenue--so I know next to nothing about it, from a playing standpoint.  
  Is this something we could discuss in detail here, how this course in particular can be set up to be a test for the good player, yet remain free of gimmicks?  It's getting a little bit away from Jerry's original question, but it has the potential to be an interesting thread.  
Thanks!

-DRB

[Dave_Miller]

What courses do you know of that have become antiquated due to the modern ball/equipment with respect to other than the top echelon players?  Is the course simply defenseless because of the ball/equipment or is it because of the conditioning?  Or is this whole issue simply limited to the very best players and the other 99.9% really can enjoy the great courses without finding them defenseless to their game?  Merion as originally designed might not have enough length for the very best players, but what about the rest of us?  And if it is played hard and fast with firm greens and significant rough, who but the absolute top players is going to feel that it is defenseless?  

Merion East is world class and inside the ropes could host any type of championship.  Even with the elite players in the world.  It may not be possible to hold a US Open there because of where Corporate Hospitality etc would be placed.  But as a playing venue it is in no way defenseless

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[TEPaul]

Douglas:

The only thing that makes Merion East's two par 5 difficult is that both of them have always been pretty difficult to reach in two shots. That was back then, though, I really don't know about today. I do know in the entire 1981 Open less than half a dozen players, if that, in the entire tournament reached #2 in two shots and on #4 less than that, if anyone, but today may be different obviously. #2 has a little additional tee length on it compared to 1981 and #4 is the same. But neither of those holes are the type par 5 that players today can reach with mid-irons as are so many par 5s today. But other than not being able to reach in two shots both holes are certainly very birdieable by today's pros. Eagles are another matter, though, compared to most par 5s for tour pros.

Let me put it this way---if a whole lot of tour pros can reach #2 today in two shots the equipment and distance thing really has changed compared to 1981. #2 itself would be an excellent comparison to just how much things may have changed distance-wise in 23 years.

"Is this something we could discuss in detail here, how this course in particular can be set up to be a test for the good player, yet remain free of gimmicks?"

Doug:

There certainly is something we could discuss in detail here on that note. I think there're enough around here and even on this website that understand the nuances of that course well enough to offer some excellent detail on that note. It is possible, in my opinion, to set that course up where it would not be defenseless. That set-up is not the easiest thing to pull off because weather and such really would need to cooperate but if it did in something like a US Open the club's maintenance does know how to do set the course up for something like an Open without sending playability "over the top". Some of the Hugh Wilson tournaments are some excellent barometers of that but it's also an excellent barometer of how close "over the top" is to a really demanding set-up for the best. Let's put it this way---there's not much latitude in there on a course like Merion Est but it is doable and they do know how to do it. What they would need, though, is for the USGA to understand exactly what it takes for them to do it and not change the set-up application in the middle of the tournament to accomplish some scoring effect by doing something and demanding something of maintenance that's sort of goofy and near to "over the top" as they did at Shinnecock this year. In my opinion, the USGA just freaked out on Friday night over the -7 leading score and asked maintenance to take the course to an unnecessary extreme. They should've just left the set-up as it had been on Thursday and Friday, in my opinion. If somebody won at -10 or even a bit lower, so what? -10 or -12 or something like that sure wouldn't mean to me that Shinnecock was defenseless or not a top caliber championship course but obviously the USGA feels differently about what a winning score under par means in a US Open.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As I mentionedearleir in this thread, at this years Wilson.....on the second say the greens were set up to run hard anf pretty swift.
More emphasis on hard though. It was hard to stop anything on the greens, even shots to number 9 from the highest of the tees were running over the green.
I think Jamie will agree with me that scoring was very difficult.
If I remember correctly nobody broke par and I cannot remember if anybody even broke 72{2 over} on that day..not many anyway.
It was fantastic but close to the limit..as Ialso sad at the begining of this thread, the course can handle A U.S.Open at ANYTIME.

TOM,
You know that I love both Merion and PV almost at the same level, but I have to say that I think Merion is the more penal of the two courses.

The severity of the rough, makes a big difference, and as you said the fairways at Merion are considerably tighter.
The rough just off the fairway at Merion, at least for me, limits the next shot to a 9 iron at best.
The areas around the greens at both courses is very severe, but you get the feeling at Merion that the severe rough is just a little closer to the putting surface, basically there is not any fringe..just rough..just like a US Open!!!!1

Merion was not antiquated before they added yardage, now that they have, it can be classified in the brutal status...if it wasn't already.
Let me stress brutal... in a complimentary, positive manner

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I forgot to comment on the par fives.
Still basically three shotters, number 4 for sure, and the price for missing the fairwayand/or green at any point in the hole is very costly.

The bail out area away from Ardmore AV for instance..the rough on the left side of that fairway is incredibly deep and a challenge just to get out of it.
The same can be said of the rough to the right and left of number 4.
Great par fives, you cannot relax on any of your shots.
The bunkering on number two is as good as it gets.
Those bunkers up the right side in the landing area of the second shot are awesome..perfect.
All par fives should be this good!!!

[John Kirk]

My home course, Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow), has suffered somewhat because of the longer ball.  An unusual aspect of Witch Hollow is that the par 4s are virtually all medium length, and from the blue (second, about 6500 yards) tees, I rarely have a mid iron approach, when I could expect 3-5 of them per round 10 years ago.  The championship tees are about 7,050 yards, so I can move back there in the summertime, where the course plays more interesting for me.  6500 yards is plenty during the wet season in Oregon.

I'd guess the average handicap index of the Pumpkin Ridge membership has dropped by about 2 points in the last 10 years.

Perhaps the great classic courses in the country are not affected as much, because they defend par with sloped greens and severe greenside hazards.  Of the courses I play regularly, Pasatiempo plays at about the same difficulty as always, and Stanford seems about one stroke easier.  In each case, I still get to play a wide variety of shots.

The courses that lose the most from the longer ball are flat, wide-open, 6500 yard courses, where the primary defense is length.  There's a course near Marysville, California named Plumas Lake, which was once listed as a top ten public course by Golf Digest (about 25 years ago).  It is a rather flat 6200 yard course, and I imagine it's sort of a pitch and putt now.

I just want to approach greens with a wide variety of clubs.

This thread seems to have been turned into a discussion about Merion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB & TEPaul.,

Could it be that PV's greater fairway widths makes it play easier ?

If PV's fairways were narrowed, as Merion's have been, how would they compare in terms of resistance to scoring ?

Merion has used difficult rough as an impediment to scoring.  If PV allowed their roughs to grow to Merion's equivalent, wouldn't that also affect scoring.

PV is built on a sand base.
Does it inherently play faster ?