[ian]

I'm in the middle of a lot of digging in general, it mainly concerns courses in Canada that no longer exist. My latest place is Royal Montreal. While working on the old Dixie courses by Willie Park Jr. I have ended up reading the Centenial History of Royal Montreal.

Here are the interesting facts I have read that bring the questions:

(for interest) In the book they essentially say they left the Dixie course moved mainly due to its inability to host a tournyment. While well liked the course became too easy. The course had also been squeezed by the airport expansion, surrounding development, and a road went right through the middle of the course. Add in the two railways and the place was "noisy"

The intial choice for the new courses was Trent Jones, and he was brought to Montreal and selected the current site.

When the club decided to build two new course immediately, RTJ was too busy to do it right away. They in turn engaged Wilson and the project was begun the winter of 1956.

Question 1: What was Wilson's health at this point?

The project was done by Wilson according to the club history and Wilson was assisted by "Robert Simmons, his project engineer, and colloborator on several other courses"
What suprised me is there is NO mention of Joe Lee. Joe Lee has made it clear (including to me in person) that these courses were done by him.

Question 2: Was Robert Simpson an associate like Von Hagge and Lee?

Question 3: Why is there no record of Joe Lee on site, but he claims it is HIS design?

In the book there are quotes from a Herbert Warren Wind article that credits Wilson with "helping design the revised Shinnecock Hills", and "some of the remodelling of Merion"

Question 4: I've seen the Shinnecock site notes from Flynn and heard about Gordon's comments about Wilson. Was Wilson a man who took credit for work he did not do?

Question 5: Do you think the history choose to ignore Lee becuse Wilson is held in higher regard, or is this all full of question marks?


For Tom MacWood regarding trees:

"Plant trees. Add to the beauty and character of the courses, but don't plant too damn many.The great feature of this place is the sweep of the landscape. Don't hem in your fairways with lines of trees like bowling alleys. Keep the views."

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

I don't know if you have yet or not, but perhaps you should ask Mr. Von Hagge these questions?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What the Club Secretary told me by E-mail a couple of years ago was that Wilson engaged Joe Lee as his site supervisor....Lee...has returned to Royal Montreal over a number of years to make improvements and adjustments, including reconstructing the bunkers to Wilson's original designs.

[TEPaul]

"Question 4: I've seen the Shinnecock site notes from Flynn and heard about Gordon's comments about Wilson. Was Wilson a man who took credit for work he did not do?"

Ian:

Apparently so. In hours of interviews with Flynn's daughter she mentioned to us that Dick Wilson was a constant head-ache to Toomey and Flynn on some projects particularly Shinnecock. Flynn's daugther is not a critical person in the slightest and her remarks about Dick Wilson are lent some credence as she also said that Dick Wilson's brother who also worked on the Toomey and Flynn crews couldn't have been nicer and more reliable according to her father.

David Gordon, William Gordon's son, mentioned recently that Dick Wilson working on the crew of the construction of Shinnecock (his father William Gordon was the project manager) took some liberties from the design plans at Shinnecock and the crew had to go back and redo some things.  

Dick Wilson returned to Shinnecock in the early 1960s to do some consulting and apparently told the club he designed Shinnecock. That apparently started the rumor that got into a few of Shinnecock's history books that Shinnecock was designed not by Toomey and Flynn but by Dick Wilson.

[wsmorrison]

"That apparently started the rumor that got into a few of Shinnecock's history books that Shinnecock was designed not by Toomey and Flynn but by Dick Wilson."

Gee, you can't believe everything you read.  Rumors get started and the facts get mixed up!  Can someone please tell this to Tom MacWood.  Can anybody tell anything to Tom MacWood?  Maybe if we write it down, he'll believe it  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Don't tell that about club history books to Tom MacWood---I don't think he's ever seen a club history book he does believe. Most all club histories, to him, seem to be on some agenda to confuse and divert proper architectural attribution. The only truth of what happened on any golf course to Tom MacWood is what's said in magazines and newspaper articles. Did any magazine or newspaper article ever mention that Dick Wilson was the architect of Shinnecock? Oh my God, how awful, how could that have happened!  

[ian]

Tom and Wayne,

Thanks for the Wilson comments above.

I thought this was clear, since I have no reason to disbelieve Joe Lee about his working there, I have even stated on this site that the course is actually a Lee course. Obviously the lack of mention of his name is really suprising, and left me unsure whether to take him at his work. The other issue is that the club gives a lot of detail and quotes on what Wilson was trying to do with the golf course. Perhaps it is a Wilson routing and Joe did all the field supervision.

HS Colt and Royal Montreal:

In 1912 Colt was brought in to look over the 18 hole Dunn layout, and to investigate a possible relocation. He looked at 4 sites but recommended they stay put and improve their existing facility. He made recommendations, that may or may not have been done.

1922 Willie Park Jr. built the new 18 on new land and revised the existing course.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

I'm not so sure I understand what surprises you so much about no real mention of Joe Lee in Montreal in 1956. Joe Lee basically worked for Wilson until Wilson died in 1965 when Lee went out on his own.

My Dad lived in Delray Beach Florida for years and I believe both Wilson and Lee did too. My Dad and all his golfing buddies loved Dick Wilson and used him a lot. When he died they sort of turned to Lee at first but that didn't last. He just didn't seem to have the same attraction as Wilson but it may've just been a new guy who showed up in town and they all sort of became attracted to him---Pete Dye.

[ian]

Tom,

Consider this:

Wilson died 6 years after this project, so Wilson still should have been in good health.

Cornish and Whitten name Robert Simmons along with Lee, Batto, Von Hagge and Northrup as assistants.

Lee is not mentioned but Simmons is mentioned specifically by the club?

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