RTJ Questions Where'd he come from, and why was he so important?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Johnny Carson?!

Now, that's an interesting fact!

[TEPaul]

Didn't RTJ actually land himself on the cover of something like TIME magazine of all things? If that's true THAT is definitely taking golf architecture and the "golf architect" and going BIGTIME!

But certainly so is going on Johnny Carson's "TONIGHT SHOW". That was a lot bigger back then than any of the late night shows these days.

[Tyler Kearns]

Wayne,

The information on the runway or landing strip tees is derived from the Architects of Golf. The example given of this Jones style is Peachtree, where tees as long as 80 yards allowed greater flexibility in course set-up and eased maintenance concerns by spreading out the wear & tear. Peachtree was designed in 1948, and to be honest, I'm not familiar enough with Jones' work to know if, and how much earlier he incorporated this type of tee design. Maybe he borrowed this feature from William Flynn or another architect, but from what I gather, it became an element of the Jonesian style. Did Flynn design such tees throughout his career?

TK

[wsmorrison]

Tyler,

I sure don't recollect any cases where he used this runway stuff before the mid 1930s.  I'll review the earlier drawings and see if I see other examples of it and report back anything.  It seemed to be something Flynn was doing on the few courses he was working on in the 1930s.  

Interestingly, the last course Flynn worked on, and in fact died while finishing the project, was a redesign of Ross's Indian Spring GC in Montgomery County, MD.  The last drawing we have shows jumbo jet runway tees--before jumbo jets.  The course is now NLE but the tee on the 365 yard 12th was planned to be 110 yards long and on the 460 yard 13th there is one just over 100 yards long.  Most are 60-80 yards long.  The 195 yard 17th had a tee 80 yards long!

Does anybody know of other early examples of runway tees?  Maybe RTJ got it from Flynn.

[Brad Klein]

Hey, maybe he got the idea frorm those course architects who spent WWII designing airfields - Dick Wilson and Walter Irving Johnson come immediately to mind, but there were others.

[wsmorrison]

The Flynn plans for Denver CC (1923), of which only a portion was implemented, show some long tees, in the 70 to 80 yard range on a number of holes.  On one plan, 10A (which may not have been built) was meant to be a 360 yard dogleg right hole with a 100 yard tee.

[Robert Thompson]

OK -- to try to answer Mr. Mucci's very relevent question, I'd ask another question: Given RTJ's 500 plus designs, how many are actually well regarded? Like Brad, I've played the Dunes and really enjoyed it. I've played Oakland Hills, which is a lot of RTJ and a bit of Ross, and found it pretty underwhelming, despite how highly regarded it is.
I count a handful of his courses on Golfweek's lists and a similar number of Digest's list (Congressional, MAUNA KEA G. CSE., EUGENE C.C., POINT O'WOODS G. & C.C., BELLERIVE C.C., HAZELTINE NATIONAL G.C., SPYGLASS).
That said, it is pretty impressive to have even a half dozen courses on any list -- it would put him up there with the likes of Tillinghast and Ross.
Despite that, someone RTJ isn't considered in their league. Seems like there is probably a natural prejudice against him on this site, but given the number of courses considered outstanding by a number of publications, shouldn't we view RTJ as among the best architects in history?
I'm not saying that I agree with that, but the results seem to show that some think that may be the case.

Robert

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I said RTJ had two reputations, and the second one derived from his first. I've recently replayed The Dunes Club and Peachtree and they are phenomenal - still. I have no doubt he was talented, but simply stated, he built up too big an empire,

Brad, it's not uncommon for an entepreneur or businessman to build a business so large that he can no longer manage it.

The critical issue is: if that person recognizes that shortcoing and hires talented managers to handle the administrative end while the founder continues with the creative and/or enterpreneurial tasks.

I can see how the weight of organizational responsibilities can stifle the creative side, and perhaps this might explain your time line and the quality of the products produced.[/color]

had a writer on staff (Red Hoffman) promoting him,
I knew Red for about 40 years.
I don't believe that he was a full time employee of RTJ's.
I believe he would be best described as a consultant.[/color]

got caught up with p.r. (invented the idea of "signature design" and "Open Doctor" and appeared on Johnny Carson),

Businessmen who went through the depression had a different perspective from those that didn't.
Many remained frugal or reluctant to build payroll which is necessary when developing an organization and hiring talent with the intent of delegating.  All too often these men wore, or tried to wear many hats, which was difficult as their firm grew.  It often proved their undoing.

One only has to watch Television or read Golfweek to understand the value of advertising, public relations and promotion, it's a vital cog in almost every American business.
RTJ was ahead of his time, but failed to develop the corporate structure to manage these facets of a business.[/color]

and was wheeling and dealing with his own land projects because he thought he could be a developer and lost a lot of money in the process.

Speculation, or getting into fields where you're a novice or your expertise is questionable at best, has been the undoing of fellows far smarter then RTJ.[/color]

Plus he lost control of his work and delegated it all, often to less-talented proteges.

With a career spanning 70 years this should come as no surprise.  And, when you factor in a business that grew beyond his ability to manage it, it makes sense.

I know extremely, and I mean extremely talented attorneys, surgeons and other businessmen, geniuses at their trade, who deliberately avoid the administrative side of their business, choosing to remain within their field of expertise, without the distractions brought about by expansion and diversification of their talents and business.  Many of these individuals bring in talented outsiders to run those aspects of the business.  
But, those with the depression mentality were inherently prevented from adopting this business philosophy.

Nicklaus, Palmer, Fazio and others have struggled with this same dilema.

Some attribute Nicklauses business failures to the same problem of not letting others do the work, of trying to do to much of it all by yourself.  Palmer's business model/structure probably looked vastly different then Jack's.

Lastly, I lived through a good portion of the RTJ era, and he was actively sought by others, they pursued him and they wanted an RTJ design, either in the original form or in the form of alterations to their golf courses.  

So, I'd prefer that those who weren't even born when RTJ was doing his work, those that had no active part or knowledge of his dealings with golf clubs, boards and committees refrain from telling us exactly how RTJ went about doing his business.

Classifying him as a snake oil salesman is disrespectful, dishonest, disengenuous and an affront to a man who produced over 500 golf courses, nationally and internationally, during a long and distinguished career.[/color]

[Brad Klein]

Pat, we probably agree, he was ahead of his time in marketing. However, I never used the term "snake oil" to describe that - you did, twice. I never said or implied he was a fraud. I did say he was an aggressive self promoter, but of course he had a large body of good work to point to. He also did an immense amount of very mediocre work, or at least his staff did - and I think I know who did it when.

Red Hoffman was not fulltime, you are correct about that. But he was ghost writing for RTJ (without attribution) while writing about golf in NJ papers. A crime? No, just more sophisticated marketing and p.r.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Red Hoffman was not fulltime, you are correct about that. But he was ghost writing for RTJ (without attribution) while writing about golf in NJ papers. A crime? No, just more sophisticated marketing and p.r.

Exactly. Snake Oil!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

Tommy Naccarato described him as a "snake oil" salesman.

One of the discussions I had with Frank Hannigan was the difficulty in getting "golf" into the sporting news, especially amateur golf and architecture.

Golf was, and continues to be, a stepchild of sports or sports writers.
If it wasn't for Tiger Woods in the last five years or so, do you think the media would have given golf the same amount of coverage ?

Tommy Naccarato,

I read every golf pubication put out in New Jersey for over 40 years and was keenly aware of Red Hoffman's newspaper work and other work.

For you to attribute RTJ's success to the pen of Red Hoffman is outrageous and totally inaccurate.  Especially if you knew Red Hoffman, as everybody in New Jersey golf did.

The golf community chased RTJ.
They wanted his product
Just look at # 12 at GCGC.
Do you think he just drove down Stewart Avenue and made a wrong turn into the club parking lot ?

And, his work has endured.

Again, just take a look at the 12th at GCGC.
It's been 40 years and it's still there.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Think about all of the times Jones claims of being the founder of the Heroic School of Golf Architecture.....MacKenzie, Tillinghast and others spoke of the Heroic so many years before him.

I think of him holding on tightly to the original manuscript for Spirit of St. Andrews for so many years, and never letting on to its existence, and it further influences my opinion of him as a person.

He did more to harm the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's of golf architecture then any other architect of that period.

His sons aren't much different!

Snake Oil!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And Pat, Anyone that would have stood for tearing down the old, and then designing the current Garden City Golf Club #12 was definitely a charleton masquerading as a Golf Course Architect!

Of all people, I would have thought you would have known that!

[Sean_A]

Robert T

Those are harsh words about Oakland Hills!  

Ciao

Sean

[Brad Klein]

Pat, since your response (no. 32 above) was directed at me and you criticize a number of my claims and throw in one about "snake oil," I think my response is justified.

On quite a number of issues of terminiology and characterization I disagree in tone and emphasis with Naccarato. I know where he's coming from and always appreciate his lively language but think here (and elsewhere) he simplifies a lot for the sake of dramatic effect. Although I have to admit he's a whole lot more entertaining than I am.

[A_Clay_Man]

In attempting to answer why he was so important... perhaps his early work, or his best work, doesn't belong in the equation, but it was his short-comings (failures) that taught US what constitutes poorer quality GCA?

 Afterall hindsight is 20/20.

The line about airfields was priceless.

Spyglass Hill, The Dunes club, Rio Seco, and some place in Lincoln Ne. are the designs I can recall off the top of my head, that I have golfed. Some question Spy's greatness, but nobody questions those first five. On the remainder, I feel he did add what he could through fairway and green movement, to make the golf as interesting as possible.

[TEPaul]

"I know where he's coming from and always appreciate his lively language but think here (and elsewhere) he simplifies a lot for the sake of dramatic effect. Although I have to admit he's a whole lot more entertaining than I am."

TommyN is certainly entertaining but I'm not sure I'd say he's more entertaining than Brad Klein is or can be. Frankly, I never thought of this before but can you imagine if we could take those two on a nation-wide tour to speak in front of significant clubs of significant architecture? Talk about Frick and Frack given their vastily different body types and their vastly different speaking styles? If anyone started to nod off in the presence of those two that person should probably have their pulse checked by a doctor for advanced morbidity!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

If one looks at the pictures, RTJ's redo of the 16th at ANGC is a vast improvement of the original hole.

Steve

[Steve Okula]

If any further evidence is needed of Jones' worth and influence, one need look no further than the long list of successful architects he helped develop and left in his wake.

Here in Europe, just off the top of my head, Cabell Robinson is doing outstanding work. Jeremy Slessor is managing director of European Golf Design, and Kyle Philips turned out a masterpiece at Kingsbarns. I'm sure there are dozens of practicing GCA's in the States who tutored under Jones, besides the sons.

Patrick Mucci, bravo on some fine posts.

Tommy N, you're sounding hysterical, my friend.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brad,
One of the greatest films currently out--Sideways, features actors of lesser star quality and give some of the best dramatic performances seen from Hollywood in years (Although Sean Penn's performance in last years Mystic River still blows me away. What a great actor!)

What's great about these actors doing these types of films are that they do it on talent and not hype--even though Sideways is now being accused of over-hyped by the critics, I call it a great film and highly entertaining. One that deserves the praise.

Equate it to golf courses, golf architects and actors and movies and you'll find that there was little room for Robert Trent Jones or Julia Roberts in any of them.

Way to go Alexander Payne!

(That's my point in the views of greatness, and that dowsn't mean I haven't enjoyed a RTJ course in my life, I have--but I have seen an aweful lot of missed opportunities also. He created his own hype not unlike that of a really bad Spielberg movie.)

Steve O., Whatever it takes to get you to post more often!
(Your presence is truely missed here!)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Could you cite the specifics and exactly where and when RTJ made the statements and claims you allege he made ?

And, could you use precise quotes from reliable sources and not hearsay.

Based on your personal, first hand knowledge, could you also cite commissions he received predicated solely on his
"snake oil" salsemanship ?  Feel free to cite the golf course and the intimate details on how he was awarded each job.

With respect to the 12th at GCGC, the MEMBERS wanted to do away with the hole long before RTJ arrived on the scene.

RTJ was the instrument of their "will".
Had he not done it someone else would have.

You will also note, that 40 years later the hole still exists in the form RTJ left it in.

So, who's fault is that, RTJ's for exercising the will of the membership, or the membership's ?

And, whose fault is it that the hole remains intact 40 years later, RTJ's or the memberships ?

Exactly how many of RTJ's courses have you played ?
Could you name them ?

Are you telling us that Spyglass Hill is without architectural merit and the sole product of "snake oil" salesmanship ?

How about Dorado Beach ?
Bellerive ?
Greenville ?
Robert Trent Jones ?
Point of Woods ?
Tuxedo ?
Montauk ?
Upper Montclair ?
Wigwam-Goodyear ?
Atlanta Athletic Club ?
Rockrimmon ?

Generically and globally trashing RTJ personally, and all of his work doesn't become you, nor does it enhance your credibility.

Brad Klein,

You're erudite enough to have read all of the posts on this thread and distinguish what you said, versus what others said, and to know to whom I was addressing my remarks.

TEPaul,

I agree.

I was surprised by the comedic presentations I witnessed.
Wit skillfully mixed with well prepared exhibits makes for an entertaining and informative presentation.

[Brad Klein]

Pat, sometimes your style of throwing back quotations and responding to them in list form gets the better of you. This is one of them. I've been married long enough to know when I'm wrong and when I'm right, and this is one of those crystal clear times where you can't wriggle out of it.

As for defending RTJ. I think he did a lot of phenomenal work and I think he did a tremendous amount of really bad work that was poorly constructed and poorly bid. Having his own construction team and making his ego part of the deal got in the way. I know of one club that got so sick of him the president fired him on the 16th fairway during a walk-through of a renovation, and when RTJ sent a double-bill in later for $5,000 the club threatened to sue and RTJ backed down. I wouldn't dismiss him outright as crooked, mind you, but he did have his shortcomings at times and they are well known inside the industry. Not to take a thing away from the occasional genius of his vision. But like too many great men, he was a flawed person.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Eighteen questions, that might be close to record for you. Do you actually expect anyone to answer that many questions?

Since you mentioned it, what is your opinion of Dorado East and West?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Your response regarding Garden City is a weak and often too much repeated one.

If RTJ thought it was a wrong thing to do, he should have told the club differently. Did you ever ask yourself why he just didn't think of softening those bold side hummocks for the faster green speeds instead of building that pathetic effort on a course that is filled with holes of extreme thought and character?

No, instead, RTJ built a RTJ-themed golf hole on a course that is anything but that. You know it, and should never even mention this man's name in any positive breath in regards to GCGC because of it. Especially when you take your passion of GCGC and add it to the mix. You want to diminish my credibility, lets look at yours! At least I stand up for what I believe in! I used to think you did too!

You hate that hole more then I do, and when it was conceived it was simply a pompus and arrogant 1960's RTJ coming in and telling them what they should do--not what the members thought they should do.  The members just followed RTJ's directive like sheep because they were no different then any country club that allowed RTJ to make changes on their esteemed courses because he was the flavor of the decade at that time. He was a legend in his own mind!

Hey, I have said I have played RTJ courses I have liked. Some that I know for a fact you haven't played, but when it comes to what he did to others designs, well I think you bring your own credibility into question.

How could you ever justify what he did just in the name of making money and ruling the world?