The rationale behind hole isolationism in golf?

[T_MacWood]

"Don't you think Flynn's thoughts of using trees to isolate run contrary to Max Behr who appreciated the openness and freedom of links golf?"

Tom MacWood:

No I don't. I believe Behr was definitely intelligent enough to understand what Flynn was saying! Flynn certainly did NOT seem to be advocating using trees or isolation between holes in all golf architecture and on all courses. We certainly can see he designed a number of courses where trees were not used to isolate holes and where there was plenty of openness and freedom between holes---Kittansett, Indian Creek, Boca Raton, Opa locka and actually Shinnecock since the elaborate tree plan of Ting/Flynn does not seem to have been used (it was only intended to be clumps of trees anyway and not hole isolation).

Flynn definitely did not advocate planting trees on linksland style courses, he merely explained that they could be used effectively on American sites that were wooded to start with, and it seems pretty clear to me if he advocated planting trees even for hole isolation he did explain that the holes should be routed and designed with good SEPARATION!

"The pleasantest type of course is one where the holes are segregated, that is where the holes you happen to be playing are WELL APART FROM ONE ANOTHER!”

(the capitals are mine so you might better notice what he was saying! The holes of PVGC, for instance, in almost all cases are well apart from one another. Much of Shinnecock is also routed with holes that are well apart from one another mostly using an architectural practice known as “triangulation”).

Do you think we may have over emphasized Flynn's comments regarding trees and should be more focused on seperation? In other words building golf courses on sites with sufficient land. Flynn never really touches on tree planting in the rest of his essays.[/blue]

Do you, on the other hand, think Max Behr would’ve advocated clear-cutting an American wooded site to give it the openness and freedom of linksland golf? Do you think Max Behr would’ve advocated that Crump clear-cut the entire interior of PVGC? If you actually do think that I believe you have a lot more to learn.

I think both those architects understood perfectly well that different types and styles of architecture were a good thing and the differences legitimately included using trees on some sites and not using them on other sites that never had any in the first place.

As someone who advocated the openness and freedom of links golf, I'm not sure Behr would have been comfortable with tree situation at PV. [/blue]

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood asked;

"Do you think we may have over emphasized Flynn's comments regarding trees and should be more focused on seperation? In other words building golf courses on sites with sufficient land. Flynn never really touches on tree planting in the rest of his essays."

Tom MacWood:

I certainly don't think I've overemphasized Flynn's comments regarding trees but I definitely think you and some others on here have over-emphasized what he meant to say about trees and the use of them to isolate holes.

If you'll just notice I actually capitalized his words "holes that are well apart from one another". Why do you suppose I did that Tom? It was to focus more on the designing of holes that are separated from one another. If you just read Flynn July 1927 article "Golf Course Architecture and Construction" you can't help but see that the second half of the article is devoted to obtaining more rather than less land for a golf course for the very reason of allowing for good SEPARATION BETWEEN HOLES!

[TEPaul]

"As someone who advocated the openness and freedom of links golf, I'm not sure Behr would have been comfortable with tree situation at PV."

Tom MacWood:

I'll say you aren't sure---you never have been! There's nothing whatsoever that you can point to that would indicate Max Behr was in anyway uncomfortable with the situation at PVGC when he saw it!

[Andy Hughes]

I don't care for this (I assume this is a two shotter), but I am partial to palm trees!  The lay up option is severely restricted. I can see the advantage of taking on the water coming up the right (if the pin is where the photo indicates), but if you try to lay up, the trees block the line of attack to the pin, unless you go up the left side taking the water on even for a lay up.  In fact, if the pin is on the left, it looks like a lay up to left side is the only option. No, I do not think the trees are necessary if this hole is a standard length par four.  Strategically, I would say the trees hinder the hole.  Mind you, it does look like one can lay up well short and still be able to pop a trouble club over the trees, but then why have a hazard?
I guess we have different ideas about strategy.  No worries, it goes into the pot.

Hi Sean
I am partial to palms as well; they make feel a little warmer on days like today  
The hole pictured is actually a par 5, which makes all the difference I think in the way the trees enter in to it and the way the strategy is dictated all the way back to the tee knowing the palms are up there.  The hole (and the rest of the course) is written up by Ran in the courses section, Tryall.
But as you say, its just a bit more variety to throw into the pot!  I do find it interesting what appeals to some and not to othes.
Cheers!

[Andy Hughes]

Just a thought to ponder...most of the discussion on this thread concerns trees to create isolationism....did not/have not some of the architects on links courses not created the same feeling of isolation using dunes?

Excellent point Michael. Interesting how if the same effect is achieved with a large dune, it grabs us and is great architecture, but if it is done with a tree or clump of trees, the mood changes.

[mike_malone]

 The concept of variety adds to the "isolation" issue. I ,for one, prefer a combination of openness and separation on parkland courses. Glen Mills starts out in the wide open then moves into the trees on #5. Bellewood,nortwest of Philly, is predominately open on the front and treed on the back. Beechtree,Scotland Run,and French Creek all have this mixture.
   
   Please forgive me while I share a brief portion of Rolling Green's exceptionally well done Master Plan by Gil Hanse.

    "Fortunately for the members of Rolling Green,we have historic evidence(in the series of aerial photographs),which shows that the course was PARTIALLY (caps mine) wooded and MOSTLY(caps mine) open....Rolling Green was blessed with having variety in this component of the course,with wooded holes and open holes."

  Excuse my bias, but I find this analysis more compelling than one's personal experience.


        Give  me the 250 acres of Bethpage Black and I can give you separation by the use of trees;150 acres+/- and it is not a good idea.

[Paul_Turner]

If Flynn wasn't an advocate for tree planting on "links like" sites.  Then how do you explain his plan for Shinnecock?

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

Flynn's plans for tree planting at Shinnecock were very sophisticated and was not intended for separation of holes, defining corridors of play or anything like that.  He wanted to use CLUMPS of trees of varying heights to add to the perception of topographic movement.  Here's what Alison wrote about Flynn's plans (my capitalizations):

"On the LOW land it is the intention to place HIGH growth on the HIGHER portions, and LOW growth on the LOWER, and to produce in this manner an illusion that the ground is undulating.  This is entirely practicable.  It is also the intention to have clumps rather than lanes.  Both these things will give good results not only as seen from the holes themselves, but also from the Club House.  It is very desirable that your landscape man should understand how important it is that he should work with Mr. Flynn, and not independently."

[T_MacWood]

"Do you, on the other hand, think Max Behr would’ve advocated clear-cutting an American wooded site to give it the openness and freedom of linksland golf? Do you think Max Behr would’ve advocated that Crump clear-cut the entire interior of PVGC? If you actually do think that I believe you have a lot more to learn."

TE
Who advocated clear-cutting?  Isn't that a bit of an over-reaction on your part? There is a difference between appreciating the openness and freedom of early pure natural golf and advocating the elimination of all trees.

Perhaps you can find common ground regarding trees (between Flynn and Tilly or Flynn and Macdonald) but you can also point to some differences. Separation was a common goal among many of these architects...tree planting to achieve separation was not as common. In fact if you study the thoughts of those early architects there are probably as many negatives associated with trees as positives.

Based upon Behr's appreciation for freedom and openness do you think he would have approved of the way trees were allowed to encroach at PV....encroach on some of the hazards....encroach on some of the natural sandy areas....encroach upon some of the panaramas? Would he prefer the course of the 1920's....that was more combination of isolation and openness or the more thickly treed modern version...where openness appears to be de-emphasized?

It seems to me Behr and Flynn had different ideas regarding the use of trees.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Personally I think it is possible to give too much weight to Flynn's relatively brief comment: "The pleasantest type of course is one where the holes are segregated, that is where the hole you happen to be playng is well apart from the others. In order to have this kind of course it is necessary to secure property that is already wooded or to do considerable planting of trees."

I'm sure he proposed trees be planted judiciously for shade, landscape effect and a certain amount of separation, but it may be misleading to read "considerable tree planting" and conclude he wanted his golf holes hemmed in by trees a la PVGC. In fact one of his four reasons includes forming  "delightful vistas".

[Paul_Turner]

Wayne

That's an interesting philosophy.

But Flynn was advocating for trees on a links-like course. Which Tom P states, wasn't his philisophy (see post #51).

Maybe Alison slapped him silly and he rethought the plan?

Reminds me of that letter in "Colt and Co" from Morrison to Alison:  "never let an American near a sand dune".