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Patrick_Mucci

What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« on: December 07, 2004, 02:22:03 PM »
The Knoll golf course in Northern New Jersey is a Charlie Banks design that includes the following holes:

Valley
Double Plateau
Redan
Hogback
Short
Bottle
Plateau
Biarritz
Eden
Knoll.

At par 70 it presents a substantive challenge to every level of golfer.

Outside of the immediate area, few have ever heard of this golf course, let alone, played it.

With such a strong foundation, what would need to be done to make it top a 100 golf course.

How does it compare to Piping Rock and/or The Creek, ignoring the views ?

Brian_Gracely

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2004, 02:23:44 PM »
What is a "Valley" or "Knoll" hole?

And of the other holes, are those representations as-good-as or better than the representations at courses that are in the Top 100?

Just because something has the same blueprint doesn't mean it gets the same consideration.  
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 02:29:41 PM by Brian_Gracely »

Paul_Turner

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2004, 02:36:08 PM »
Better land.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

A.G._Crockett

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2004, 02:49:06 PM »
Why have so few people played it?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2004, 03:00:08 PM »
AG Crockett,

I don't know the answer to your question, but,
Had you ever heard of this course before ?

If you visited the New York area would it be one of the courses you'd want to play ?

Tom Huckaby,

I was thinking along architectural lines, not raining raters upon the golf course.

Paul Turner,

It's true that The Creek and Piping Rock have more dramatic land at their disposal.   But, look at each hole, or groupings of holes.  As an example, which do you think is better, the first five holes at The Knoll or the first five at The Creek or Piping Rock ?

Redanman,

Take your pick.
There are more then a few that The Knoll could replace.

What's great about The Knoll is that it's virtually untouched since it's inception, which is rare for any golf course, especially one circa 1928-29.

In addition, from a competitive point of view, at par 70 it presents a terrific challenge.

It is underrated by any means, just as Southhampton is.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 03:06:46 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Paul_Turner

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2004, 03:05:26 PM »
Patrick

Not played Creek.  I think that The Knoll might have a stronger first 5 than Piping Rock.

But on the downside, holes 3,7,10,11,16 and 17 don't do much for me at The Knoll.  Eventhough 3 and 11 have good greens.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

A.G._Crockett

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2004, 03:07:33 PM »
No, I haven't heard of the course, and were I to visit NY with golf involved it naturally would be off my radar.

I guess what I am wondering is if there is a consensus about what seems to keep people away from the course?  Is it hard to get to?  Is it overpriced?  Is it not marketed, or marketed properly? Is it in poor condition?  None of those, of course, would necessarily preclude a ranking, but what is it about the place that seems to keep people away?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2004, 03:14:54 PM »
AG Crockett,

It sounds like you're describing Yale.

I don't know the answers to your questions.

It's a little remote, hard to find, off the beaten path.
Is access harder then at PV, CPC, NGLA ?  Doubtful, very Doubtful.

It would qualify as a "hidden gem"

Matt_Ward

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2004, 03:20:50 PM »
Pat:

I have long been an admirer of The Knoll / West. However, the threshold for a top 100 placement is really pushing things a bit until certain work is carried out with the site.

It is my understanding Township officials are moving in that direction and possibly might engage the services of the esteemed George Bahto. That would be a major victory.

Let's look at the course ...

The opening three holes are the best among public courses in NJ IMHO. You see all the details that Banks provided -- they are well done and always fun to play. In fact, the 2nd hole at 445 yards is one of the best you can play in all of Jersey -- private or public. The green is simply delicious stuff. Ditto the par-3 3rd with its unique rib cage green that divides the front and back portion.

The middle of the front nine is a bit of a letdown. Possibly adding some length might help -- possibly the re-positioning of bunkers might also work. The club has dealt with the serious drainage issues you see with the par-3 6th and par-4 7th holes.

The 8th and 9th holes are both well done -- especially the green at the home hole for the outward half.

The back nine could use some major upgrades. The land, as Paul mentioned, is lacking in terms of topographical distinctions when compared to other Banks layouts such as Whipporwill, Forsgate or Essex County.

I believe the 13th could be restored as a super Biaritz type hole -- but the issue comes down to doing it. The finishing three holes are solid but some gentle tweaking would be needed there too. The par-4 18th needs to be lengthened to relfect what was originally intended. With today's clubs & balls it's a far different hole. I still believe it's the best closing public hole in the state because the green complex and the way it's angled is well done. An updated accounting of that hole will only bolster what's already there.

Pat -- The Knoll is indeed a special place but there are other Banks layouts that right now as I write this -- Essex County & Forsgate -- would merit a greater look for a possible top 100 inclusion among the classic courses that GolfWeek has listed.

I've got my fingers crossed that future improvements are on the way with Mr. Bahto leading the way.

We shall see ...

jeffwarne

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2004, 03:46:37 PM »
Patrick,
sounds like a course I need to play-thanks
If it was a par 72 would it be less of a challenge?
i.e. if you called 2 450 yard par 4's par 5's?
I only ask because you mentioned it twice
Why not make it a par 68?-then surely it'd be challenging enough to be in the Top 100
a tired thread I know,but par is just a number
I've always thought a par 70 was easier,because I could be 9 over and still break 80(or only 1 under and break 70)
and not once has anyone asked how many over I was

Nice words about Southampton where I'm a member,but I'm not sure Southampton is underrated as I hear a lot of positive buzz about it in many circles
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kirk

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2004, 04:46:26 PM »
Here in the days of the second Golden era of architecture, it's getting awfully hard to crack the top 100.  Both beautiful new courses and restored classics vie for the coveted positions.  I have to believe that the 100th best course in the country is better than the 200th best course 30 years ago.

It makes sense to me to expand the list(s) to include the 200 best.  That way deserving clubs get recognition, and the top 100 ae still there for everyone to see.

Lots of list talk lately.  Must be wintertime.

JK

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2004, 04:55:09 PM »
JeffWarne,

Being able to shoot par is a valid criterion for establishing the challenge of the architecture.

There are no 450 yard holes at The Knoll.
If the two longest par 4's were made par 5's, of course it would be less of a challenge, by two shots.

Matt Ward,

I didn't say that The Knoll was a top 100 golf course today.
I asked what could be done to bring it into that category.
The Knoll is basically untouched, and I thought that was a prized attribute of any CB, SR, CBM golf course.  It also possesses many fine golf holes.  Perhaps George Bahto will be allowed to alter/restore/improve the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 02:23:53 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matt_Ward

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2004, 07:51:24 PM »
Pat:

To get into the top 100 is a difficult chore because the competition is thaaaaaaaaat keen.

For me, The Knoll would need to do the following:

1). Improve its overall turf conditioning and have the course on a 24/7 basis no less than what you find today at Ballyowen -- which I believe is the best day-to-day public course in terms of turf quality.

2). Once and for all deal with the drainage issues. They did some work in the are between the 6th green and 7th fairway but there are other areas on the course needing some attention.

3). The green sites are fine but a few need to be enlarged to reflect what was originally envisioned. I would love for them to extend the putting green on the 13th hole so that it would be a true Biaritz -- whether that happens is problematic at best.

4). Include a few more bunkers so that the better player is challenged off the tee. One example -- the opening hole has a fairway bunker that is really more for show than for strategic consideration. Bunkers should relfect what has happened to the game since the heyday of The Knoll many years ago.

5). Carefully study the possibility in adding length to a range of holes on the course. I would like to see even the 2nd receive more length to correspond to the club selection that Banks likely envisioned although I know that may be impossible. Another example -- the 10th can be extended to a different level closer to the actual clubhouse instead of being where it is today. There are other examples that can be provided. The 18th -- no doubt a superlative hole -- should go back into the trees behind the tee no less than 30-40 yards to bring back the terror of the second shot into the target.

Pat -- I'll say this again -- before The Knoll could even begin to think about a possible top 100 designation it needs to reclaim some spots among what exists in Jersey public golf right now. As much as I'm a fan of the course I just rated the place no higher than 12th in Jersey Golfer because of what is going with the other top tier public courses in New Jersey.

On top of that -- you have to be fair to other Banks courses in NJ -- such as Essex County, Forsgate, a portion of Montclair -- that are a good bit beyond what The Knoll offers right now. I'd much rather see Essex County and Forsgate make a claim for the top 100 classic by GolfWeek. The Knoll has some definitie possibilities but any suggestion for top 100 status is AT BEST right now is wishful thinking.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2004, 09:15:08 PM »
Matt Ward,

Didn't Essex County recently undertake a big golf course project ?

The Knoll hasn't had any substantive work in 75 years.

How can you compare the two ?

You're probably unaware that there were discussions centering around a swap, The Knoll for Preakness Hills.

If Preakness Hills owned The Knoll rather then a municipality there's no doubt that it's condition would be amongst the best.

Why would you tinker with bunker placement ?

Isn't that what you objected to at Baltusrol ?

If George Bahto were given a free hand, there is no doubt that the club would ascend the ladder, possibly into the top 100.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 09:20:10 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

George_Bahto

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2004, 10:15:55 PM »
The Knoll has been my "home" course for the past 30 years.

I have been doing bunker restoration there for the past two seasons but the wheels turn slowly when a municipality is involved but I (and the members) are pleased with what has been done so far - I don’t please easily.

What is so very interesting here is that the greens are so original. I have not seen original green undulations like this on any Banks course and have only seen a few greens this original on few  Raynor  courses.

I'm planning new tees on certain holes that would add much to the architecture.

I am NOT going to play musical bunkers but plan to reestablish the 7 bunkers that have been removed over the years. Most of the "lost" bunkers were those seemingly inconsequential ones that were "no longer in play" - the ones usually placed some 180-yds off the tee at the beginning of fairways. Not in all cases should they be re-established on old courses but here I would like to do it here for many reasons .........  Anyhow, they ARE IN PLAY for some golfers. Besides they add a great visual to the playing field.

There are a number of holes where new tees restore the Banks hole strategies perfectly

   ......... example: a new tee on  hole 15, now a short 5, where people blow over the 1st set of bunkers AND 2nd shot landing area bunkers, would be back in play with the new tee, some 45-50 yards back.

Adding new tees or lengthening tees on 2, 4, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15 & 18, not only adds (little needed) length but strategy and shot values to those holes.

     * The course plays tough.

     * It needs to be kept more firm.

     * The greens WILL be properly expanded (we’re currently moving them out at a snail’s pace.

     * The fairways WILL be expanded properly (same as above)

     * The greens are large and are kept too slow - but you have to be really careful here because, given the bold undulations -  (some think they would be too difficult to putt - to me that's a joke). These greens would be perfect at about "11"

    * The attention to detail it awful.

   * We're overgrown but are doing pretty good with tree removal (nice with no committees and neighbors).


Patrick: I really do have a free hand in what is to be done inside our budget parameters. - We can’t go out and consign the members - the town owns the course

Everything is fine, it’s just a slow grind but I think we will be moving faster soon.

A bit of history:

Club founded by 30 millionaires in 1927-28 by presidents and some members of Montclair CC, Essex County and other local clubs so they could have their own very private enclave. Included in the founders were Thomas Watson (BM founder) and J R Monroe (Monroe Bus Machines) who were influential members at Baltusrol.

They spent 2 mil at the time - clubhouse, the great Clifford Wendehack. They had Banks actually built three models of courses (different properties) before settling on the present property. They also asked Banks not to make the course overly difficult and they did not want a lot of hill climbing - hence the clubhouse on the hill (The Knoll - duh!) .... play down #1 and thru level land, climbing back up the knoll for #9 ....... same on the back nine.

They went Depression broke and the course was picked up by 2 brothers from Montclair in the food business - the Millionaires owed him $30,000.

The next 25 yrs were the hey-day of the Knoll: celebs (ball players, musicians etc ..... Jackie Gleason, Joe DiMaggio, Tommy Dorsey and the rest - it was Sarazen's hangout as well. - other "celebs" included most of the better golfers in the area -  yes, of course, Sr and Jr Pat Mucci!!!!!!!

When Mr. Aiello died the club was purchased by a local college and it really went to hell - later there were local political problems and people were “sent away”

The Township purchased it under the NJ Greenacre’s program and we have been on the upturn since -

Good thing I live close by!!
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Matt_Ward

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2004, 10:42:55 PM »
Pat:

Let's review what you just said ...

"Didn't Essex County recently undertake a big golf course project?"

Yes, but the work is not completed. I believe some tee work remains -- I'm sure George can itemize what other elements are being contemplated. I don't hold back one course that has completed work or is near the end when stacked up against another course that has done nothing.

"The Knoll hasn't had any substantive work in 75 years.
How can you compare the two?"

Pat -- I go by "what is." That's what raters have to assess -- I don't doubt the potential of The Knoll but potential is a problematic item. It may happen -- it may NEVER happen. Right now Essex County is the superior course by far when you compared together. If you think the "potential" of The Knoll can exceed either or both Essex County / Forsgate that's fine. I want to see it happen no less than anyone -- until then -- it's no contest now for me.

"You're probably unaware that there were discussions centering around a swap, The Knoll for Preakness Hills. If Preakness Hills owned The Knoll rather then a municipality there's no doubt that it's condition would be amongst the best."

Pat -- this is the old "what if argument" that means little to me. Again -- I go by what is NOW not what MAY have happened. Pat -- keep in mind if the Red Sox didn't trade Babe Ruth the roll-call of World Series winners would have been in Beantown instead of the Big Apple. The reality is that the conditions today at The Knoll are fair at best -- the course is set-up to be way tooooooo slow as George indicated and there are still some serious issues relating to drainage in certain areas of the course. When the place gets like Ballyowen on a daily basis I'll be the first to say so.

"Why would you tinker with bunker placement ? Isn't that what you objected to at Baltusrol?"

My issue with Baltusrol wasn't the addition of bunkers but the style and substance when compared to the original ones already there. Regarding The Knoll there are bunkers at the course today that cerainly can be restored but there only real relevance would be for Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass. I'd much rather see a bunker scheme that goes after the player who routinely today only looks at the bunkers but rarely, if ever, has to fear them.

Given George's considerable knowledge of Banks and The Knoll I'd be very much interested in seeing how this is approached and implemented.







Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2004, 02:35:29 PM »
Matt Ward,

How can you trivialize members/golfers because they don't hit the ball as far as you ?

Do they pay less dues ?  Less green fees ?

Just because bunkers don't come into play for you doesn't mean that that they don't have significant architectural values.  One only has to look at NGLA to see that.

And, if George adds back tees for players such as yourself, those bunkers will come into play.

Essex County enjoys a clear advantage.  A small group of individuals, the members can authorize a project.
With a municipalilty, it's a far more difficult undertaking.

I would hope that the town realizes that a revitalization of the golf course, vis a vis George Bahto, would make it a more profitable facility, attracting new members, and making it self sufficient, budget wise.  It would be a feather in the town's cap.
George Bahto,

Would you see if The Knoll would be interested in hosting my winter/spring GCA.com get together in 2006 ?


John_Conley

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Don't aim so low
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2004, 02:47:46 PM »
Pat:

Top 100?  It made Dave Marr's Top TEN!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2004, 05:05:15 PM »
John,

Thanks.

I forgot about that.

Matt_Ward

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2004, 05:15:59 PM »
John C:

The memory of Dave Marr (God Bless him!) is tied to when The Knoll had the kind of layout and conditioning worthy of discussion. That was a loooooooooooooong time ago.

Pat:

The bunker issue is in need of careful analysis at The Knoll -- whether they be located for the low or high handicappers.

I don't trivialize the higher handicappers -- I'm in support of them not being forced to handle extreme situations beyond their ability level.

Pat -- you missed my point entirely -- Essex County is right now the better of the two courses -- ditto Forsgate. If and when The Knoll does a complete master plan / restoration then let's see what shakes out. The facility has been talking about doing something for several years and not one thing has come to pass. I rate what a course IS -- I don't concern myself with what "might be" even though I am a fan of The Knoll no less than you.

In fact -- no other publication -- with the exception of The Jersey Golfer -- has ever rated The Knoll being one of the real shining public course gems. ;D

I can find out about the club's availability but the better timing would be when the work -- if it ever gets started -- is completed.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2004, 07:52:16 PM »
Matt Ward,

I don't know.  Maybe it would be better to see the course before the work begins, to see the foundation.

When you refer to members as Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass it connotes trivialization.

For years, the rap on Essex county was the first five holes.
Have they been improved that much to place the golf course ahead of The Knoll and others ?

I hope to get back there this spring.

Since George Bahto is a member and working on the course, I'd prefer that he approach the club regarding availability.
I think members tend to have more influence with respect to sponsoring outside events.  Most clubs won't entertain non-member sponsored events.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 07:54:20 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matt_Ward

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2004, 08:04:37 PM »
Pat:

You need to see what has been done -- and what is on the immediate horizon at Essex County. The first five holes have been upgraded and hats off to Gil Hanse and George Bahto in taking the club to another level. Kudos also to the club's leadership for seeing what was there and knowing how much more it could become.

No doubt the balance of Essex County still skews towards the supreme back side, however, the front is no longer the plain jane side. The bunkers have been considerably deepened and the vistas of the course have been opened to provide for the kind of width and strategic integration that was previously missing.

Pat -- Essex County and Forsgate are still the premier top two Banks courses in New Jersey IMHO. The detailing at the two I just mentioned is much sharper than The Knoll and to be fair it's really no contest until something is actually done at The Knoll. Your memory of the place is tied more to the considerable past than to the relative recent times.

The Knoll is a big time maybe -- I love the layout no less than you or anyone else. The place has become nothing more than a golf mill that drives people through no less than the famous cattle drives carried out from the dusty towns in Texas to the stockyards in Kansas City and elsewhere.

The detailing -- minus the unique greens -- is in real need for an overhaul / restoration / call it what you may.

I really believe people should see the course when it's done. If the changes are made then there will be something to show people. Charles Banks was a masterful designer but we are talking about an extreme makeover here. The Knoll has gotten by with plenty of inattention and frankly screw-ups.

Pat -- I apply the tag names of Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass in an affectionate way to refer to the common golfer. I would hope that the future changes / upgrades / restoration would balance their situation with that of the better players. Nothing more -- nothing less.

Bruce Katona

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2004, 09:25:22 AM »
My wish would be for the municipality to get out of the golf business and put running the place out to bid.  Given a long term magagement contract/lease, a private entity could inject the capital into the course to make the necessary improvements.

Simple fix, hard to make happen.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2004, 03:12:48 PM »
Bruce Katona,

The real opportunity was lost when the owner died and the owner's daughter refused to sell it to the members at any price.  Instead she sold it to a College, which subsequently went under, and the town then took it over.

It would be a big price tag, but it would seem to be an ideal purchase for those wishing to start a new club.

I don't think the town will relinquish it's hold for a variety of reasons, and as such, the club may forever be at risk.

It is a true hidden gem.

Joel_Stewart

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Re:What will it take to make the top 100 ?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2004, 04:01:10 PM »
Pat:
Are you asking because the club wants to be top 100 or are you just curious?  You believe its under rated, how does it rate in the top 25 for New Jersey?

Your first goal should be top 100 classic on GolfWeeks list which then pulls in other panelists from Golf Digest and Golf Magazine.