Looking for all stars in England

[Adam_Jessie]

I am planning a trip to England for this spring, and am looking for the best places to play and maybe some advice on what to avoid.

Thanks,  
Adam Jessie

Assistant Superintendent
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club

[Brian_Gracely]

In addition to contacting Mark Rowlinson, check out this page (which Mark composed):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/OpinionUKGolfCourses.html

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adam,
I was born and raised in England prior to moving stateside.
Let me know where you are going to be, and between myself, Mark and the other Brits we can point you in the right direction.
Are your preferences likns, parkland or heathland..or a bit of it all?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My shortlist would include
Woodhall Spa
Royal Birkdale
Sunningdale...Old especially
Walton Heath..Old course
St Georges Hill..one I have not played
Wentworth
Ganton
No hidden gems here, but a good startimg point I think, but it all depends on where in England you intend to visit.

[Brent Hutto]

Depending on when in the spring you're planning your trip, it might be worth arranging to be in the vicinity of Deal, Sandwich and Littlestone the third week of May.

[Marc Haring]

Adam. This is a big question.

As a rough guide you can split England up into a few rich pockets. South east would include the great south coast links such as Royal St Georges, Rye, Deal, Princes. Moving in land, check out Royal Ashdown Forest, West Sussex, Piltdown then onto the great London Heathland courses. These include The Berkshire, Wentworth, Sunningdale, The Addington, Walton Heath, Swinley Forset, St Georges Hill, Woking, West Hill and Worplesdon. Go West about a hundred to two hundred miles to Burnham and Berrow, Saunton, Westwood Ho and St Enedoc. There are many others to chose from including a quick trip to South Wales and Royal Porthcawl etc. There’s a good batch of Parkland layouts around Birmingham but head to Lancashire and the likes of Hoylake, Southport and Ainsdale, Hillside, Birkdale, Formby, Hesketh. The list goes on. You could catch the likes of Silloth on Solway but it may be best to head east to Ganton and Lindrick and then south to the east coast classics such as Hunstanton, Brancaster, Sherringham, Woodhall Spa.

Avoid all courses that are too heavily into corporate golf. These generally would include the eurotour venues but I’m not going to mention any names.

Adam, you should be able to get on nearly all of these FOC assuming you are a member of the GCSAA but obviously you would need to do a lot of ground work first. When you’re doing the London and south west section let me know and we could meet up for a round somewhere.

An ambition of mine is to set up a regular golfing trip between the US and UK superintendents on  a home and away basis so make sure we meet up and maybe I could start to sow the seeds.

Cheers. E-mail me if you need any further info or contacts.

[Marc Haring]

Here's a pic. Bon apetite

[John Goodman]

If you go to Brancaster, you might as well play Hunstanton while you're up there; they're less than ten miles apart.  It's a hike to get there from London, though.

[David_Tepper]

Adam-

It is funny how England so often gets overlooked when one thinks of a golfing trip to GB&I, especially as there is a strong arguement to be made that England has better golf (both links and inland) than either Ireland and/or Scotland.

If you are interested in links golf, I think the 75-90 mile of stretch of coastline from Liverpool thru Southport to Lytham St. Annes has the highest density of quality courses in the world. For what it is worth, 5 of the top 40 courses in the British Isles (according to Golf World mag) are on this stretch of coastline - Royal Liverpool (Hoylake), Formby,
Royal Birkdale, Hillside and Royal Lytham St. Annes. Other quality courses on this stretch of coastline are West Lancs, Southport Ainsdale (a past Ryder Cup site) and Hesketh.

You could stay in Southport for a week, play a different links course every day and never have to drive more than 45 minutes.        

As the other posts indicate, there are many. many other worthwhile courses to consider.

If only the dollar would get a little stronger against the pound!

DT

[Adam_Jessie]

I am very green when it comes to golf outside the US, and all of this has been a big help.

I have spoke to several people working on the Sebonack golf club project that share the same opinion as Mr. Tepper.

Overall, is there one course that is "holy grail"  for England ? I guess what I am asking what would be the equal to Oakmont, PV, Augusta, Shinnecock, Prarrie Dunes of England. Or is the list that Mr. Arbie the answer to my question?    

[ForkaB]

Adam

Stick to Sean's list, but don't try to find the holy grail, because there ain't one in England.  Depending on your mood and preferences, Sandwich, Rye, Swinley or Birkdale might fit the bill on the day, but then again they might not.  Play as many from the list as you can, and maybe you'll find a particular favorite.  And, of course, if all else fails, there is always Painswick!

[Brian_Gracely]

Also check out Ran's reviews for ENGLAND here, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/COURSES_BY_COUNTRY.html

[Philip Gawith]

adam - i a member at hoylake and huntercombe, two interesting and distinguished courses in their own way. hoylake, as you know, hosts the Open in 2006 so it is a quality links course, aside from being one of the most famous homes in England to amateur golf down the years. Huntercombe is an inland links type course, designed by willie park jr when he was building sunningdale. very low key, very english.

i would be very happy to host you at either/both venues if our diaries allow.

regards, philip

[Marc Haring]

Saunton in Devon has always been one of my personal holy grails. I know some at GCA don't rate it but I have always felt it possessed a certain something.

[David_Tepper]

Adam-

I certainly did not mean to overlook the wonderful inland courses surrounding London in my prior post. While the merits of England's links can be debated vs. Scotland and Ireland, there is no doubt that the inland/heathland/moorland courses in England are far superior (in both quantity and quality) to what you will find in Scotland and Ireland.

Spending a day playing the 36-holes at Sunningdale, Walton Heath or Berkshire is a slice of paradise and highly recommended!

DT  

[Paul_Turner]

Adam

The best course in England is Sandwich.

[Brent Hutto]

Paul and Sean,

Speaking of Sandwich, what makes it the best course in England by your estimation? I ask this not in the spirit of argument but simply because I want to know. Of the Open Championship venues I've seen on TV it is the most interesting and the one I'd most like to play although I'm not really sure why I would feel that way other than the extreme challenge that the off-camber fairways seem to present to the best players in the world.

[Brian_Gracely]

Just for clarification, I know that Royal St.George's is also called Sandwich, but isn't there also a Sandwich GC right next door? Is is that course called something else?

[Marc Haring]

Brian.

Princes GC. Right next door. Not unknown for visitors to start on one course and end up finishing on the other.  

[Brent Hutto]

Marc (and anyone else),

Here's a question of sorts. There's three things you might say about a course that are either good or bad, in the eye of the beholder. You might say "It's a tough course" or you might say "It's a fun course" or you might say "It's quirky".

Where does Royal St. George's fall, relative to other Open rota courses, on the "Tough", "Fun" and "Quirky" dimensions?

How about its neighbor Princes?

For that matter how about Royal Cinque Ports?

For instance, I'd guess that Carnoustie comes in higher on the "Tough" list than Sandwich while The Old Course may beat it out for "Quirky" but I don't know since I've never played any of them.

[TEPaul]

Adam Jessie, I've heard some very fine things about you! There're some people on here who can probably give you some great answers to the questions you're asking them on this thread but you should give some of these contributors on here some pointers on what maintaining really cool bunkering and such on one of the great courses in the world is all about. All of us on here could use more education on something like that.

Here's what I'd like to see you do Adam. Either tell Mark you're going to do this and then go do it or else don't tell Mark you're going to do it and just go do it on your own anyway. First go get a copy of Geoff Shackleford's book "The Golden Age of Golf Design", turn to page 109 which is the aerial of Shinnecock in 1938. Turn the book so page 108 is pointing down and page 109 is pointing up---carefully analyse all that sand area on the left and right of #5 that looks like a big scorpion from the air and all the area on #6 that looks like a big scorpion from the air with its right claw pulled off as well as that cool 15 bunker set on #8 that is presently only a few bunkers. Once you've completely committed the sand look on those holes to memory I want you to go out there and pull about two acres of vegetation out so those areas look just like they do in that 1938 aerial!!

Once you've done that come back on here and ask me what England's PV is, what England's Oakmont is or what England's Prarie Dunes is and I'll gladly tell you!  

[Marc Haring]

Marc (and anyone else),

Here's a question of sorts. There's three things you might say about a course that are either good or bad, in the eye of the beholder. You might say "It's a tough course" or you might say "It's a fun course" or you might say "It's quirky".

Where does Royal St. George's fall, relative to other Open rota courses, on the "Tough", "Fun" and "Quirky" dimensions?

How about its neighbor Princes?

For that matter how about Royal Cinque Ports?

For instance, I'd guess that Carnoustie comes in higher on the "Tough" list than Sandwich while The Old Course may beat it out for "Quirky" but I don't know since I've never played any of them.

Brent.

Good question although I am not probably that well qualified to answer as I have only played Birkdale and Royal St Georges on the open rota. It is however in my opinion quirky (a few blind drives, small greens and holes amongst the dunes), tough but maybe challenging would be more descriptive and it is immensely fun (you will be faced with every shot under the sun). When I played it earlier in the year the rough had been cut back in places and we were not off the tips but still played it from the white tees. I think the experience was greatly enhanced by the fact that in a rare moment of misplaced confidence I managed to put together a 72 which for me was nothing short of euphoric. Also, we simply could not believe how polite everyone was from the caddymaster to the honorable sec. We got half way round and found ourselves right in the middle of a society of the barristers ‘v’ the lawyers. They were pouring out of the clubhouse for the second 18 and were all filled up with an inspiring mixture of claret and kummel both of which I understand are obligatory during the mid golf luncheon at RSG’s. Despite daylight being on short supply they all insisted we interrupted their gathering and continued our round. The place just oozes character and class.

Deal is a great course, smaller in scale, dour and rugged in character but still immense fun. Princes I haven’t played for many a year. It’s a fine course but not on the same grand scale as its near neighbor.

[Paul_Turner]

Brent

Sandwich scored very highly on all 3 criteria; even in the company of the other Open venues.

Get hold of a B Darwin essay on his beloved Sandwich; he does it far better justice than I can.

But anyway, the course scores very highly for me because:

1) The dunes are dramatic and the lumpiness of the terrain.

2) Varied routing.

3) A great stretch of holes in 8-10.

4) A unique hole in 4.  With one of the world's best hazards.

5) Great opener.

6) Nice mix of greens in both site and contour:  Some wild, some grade level, perched, semi-bowled, front-back and back-front.

Darwin loved the isolation within the dunes.

Read Ran's profile for Deal (RCP), the pics are good.  I haven't played Princes.

[M.W._Burrows]

When were you going to let me know about this trip???

Some friend you are.  No more Playwrights for you.

[Marc Haring]

Sean. You are spot on in your description. It's the intangibles.

Here's that brilliiant #4 with Sir Hillary in the foreground after he had walked back 50 yards to ask myself and my partner to play through. We insisted they carry on.
The reason I know the gentlemen is called Sir Hillary is because on this hole my partner accidentally hit into them when they were still putting out and the group behind found it hilarious to inform us who we had nearly hit. Despite this Sir Hilary still insisted it was his fault for holding us up (even though they couldn't go quicker because of the group in front of them). Like I said, couldn't beleive how polite they all were. You'd be nutted for less at some clubs I've played.