[Tony Petersen]

Being that I live in the land of sunshine for the season, thought I would throw my 2 sense in for those that might be making the trip to AZ this winter/spring.

Working at The Desert Mountain Club, I'm fortunate to have the opportunity play quite a few of the more interesting clubs in AZ. Here it goes:

Desert Mountain - Outlaw/Chiricahua/Geronimo/Renegade (play DM 5 times per week and love Outlaw, though the others are fantastic desert courses)

Golf Club at Scottsdale (new and fun)

Whisper Rock - Lower (the Upper course is going to be TOUGH
when it opens! toured the property last week. LONG)

Talking Rock Ranch (typical Moorish- near Prescott, but a fun time. 6 players the day we played and that included our 4-some from DM)

Desert Forest (duhhhh)

Desert Highlands (you gotta love the desert!!!)

Moon Valley CC (new greens in the past couple years... Talk about Himalayas - check out the 18th green! traditional which is rare)

Pinnacle Peak (Nothing in MN, something in AZ)

Biltmore (Adobe course) Forrest Richardson knows what he's doing. The closest thing to the Golden Age in AZ)

Apache Stronghold (best design in AZ bar none!)

Mirabel (boring Fazio)

Estancia (see above)

Pine Canyon Club (I've been told it's head and shoulders above Forest Highlands)

Will post more later!!! Thanks again for all of the help over the years, guys

[Matt_Ward]

comtngolf:

Can you tell me why a good number of members at Desert Mountain loathe Outlaw?

I personally believe it's one of the finest designs Jack has ever done -- the playability aspect is certainly present and the greens and routing are among the Bear's best.

I've heard this from a few people ...

Thanks!

[Tony Petersen]

  Matt - I remember when we spoke last year about Outlaw after it's opening. Hope things are well. Next time your in AZ, try to get on Golf Club at Scottsdale. 7600 yards from the tips with more strategy and tiered greens than a group of guys at ladies night

As far as Outlaw, a friend of mine who is a member at Hiwan GC in CO (Maxwell, 50's, awesome!) played it with me and had the same question when I told him that the members for the most part despised the course. The answer is that the better players like the course, but DM is not a players club. The collection areas around the greens frustrate them, and the bottom line is that they do not have the imagination to enjoy a routing like Outlaw. God forbid they putt onto the green instead of the standard bump and run which hits the wall of the green and ends up behind them

Off the tees, it is the most inviting course at DM (though you need to be in the place). Little desert, parallel fairways, easy when compared to Chiricahua or Geronimo (if you finish a round at DM with the ball you began with, it's a great day ). Great walking course, unlike the others (though Renegade and Cochise are pretty easy to walk if you know the shortcuts through the washes and the desert).

The end result is that they don't enjoy it because they don't have the imagination to play the course.

And, I would have to agree. I've played alot of Jack's course (Niclaus Cup, other tournaments, etc.) and I'm not a big fan. BUT, Outlaw is a GREAT course, especially in the winter with the dormant grass that runs true (fast and firm) and greens typically around 12-13 on the stimp. It's not a links design (which was promised to the membership. another reason the members don't like it.), in fact I'm not sure what one would term it as far as design classifications i.e. parkland, links, etc.

I can only imagine what C & C or Doak would have done because it is a great piece of land for a course. Something better than Jack, I'm sure. Still, Jack's team did a great job for the most part and the result is a creative test of golf that requires more than a little imagination!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Have you played Southern Dunes(Schmidt-Curley-Couples) in South PHX, the new men only club? If so, what are your impressions? A friend recently played there and I'm interested in hearing other impressions.

Also, I understand TGC Scottsdale may be redoing some holes. Is this accurate?

When does the Fazio course at Whisper Rock open?

Have you heard anyrthing about the new Engh private course under construction at Vistancia in Peoria?

Thanks.

Steve

[Gene Greco]

Play at DM every winter with the former club champ, EJ. He used to give me a shot a side, now its one per hole! (No kidding).

Enjoyed the freedom off the tee at Outlaw and the completely different feel the course has when compared with the others. Don't understand why the membership is disappointed with the course - if they want real links golf move to GB. I believe Jack has provided them with a solid alternative to classic desert golf.

[Tony Petersen]

  Gene, I completely agree with you. Granted, there are more than a few architects that could have given the course more of a "links" feel, but Jack did a great job relative to his typical CEO design.

Steve, I Have not yet had the opportunity to play Lost Dunes in Goodyear. First, it's close to 1.5 hours from DM, and from those that have played it, it seems to be alright, but nothing grand ala Apache Stronghold, etc.

I haven't heard anything about a redsign at GC of Scottsdale, but I can understand why they might want to dummy down the course a tad. TOUGH course.

Fazio at Whisper Rock is scheduled for a March opening.

Engh should be a fun course. Opens in March as well!

[Matt_Ward]

comtngolf:

Thanks for the details -- the ignorance of those members who detest the course will not deter the greatness that is Outlaw.

I personally think many of those who "detest" the place don't like the fact that their so-called single digit handicap is exposed very early and often when playing the layout.

Jack gets little credit on GCA because of his earliest designs --some of which are at Desert Mountain -- were one-way oriented in their design moptif. Although I still mourn how Lyle Anderson permitted the wholesale upheaval of Geronimo with the 13th and 14th holes turned inside out. One quick unrelated question -- do you know if the extreme back tee on the sensational par-4 16th is still being used?

Outlaw does everything a modern course should do. It's very user-friendly in terms of walking. It provides stunning desert views for miles around and you don't have any of the BS cluteer of houses -- check that palaces -- that intrude at so many desert locations.

I really believe Outlaw should be played by many who value the nature of wide fairways with demanding greens that require a deft touch with your iron game.  Outlaw is a big time winner in my book and a worthy contender for national acclaim.

Steve S:

I believe the Engh course you mentioned will not open until early '06.

[Tom Renli]

I recently played Outlaw and was very disappointed.  I have only played it once and I had high expectations - that it was different, more playable.  My biggest issue that it does not recognize and reward quality shots.  Example, I hit what I thought was a very solid 5 iron into the short par 5 second.  The ball hit on the front fringe and rolled back short right 70 yards to set up for a difficult at best pitch.  My third was played from the same spot as if I had shanked my second.  The entire day seemed to go that way, guess I need to play it again.

GCS seems to be the best of the North Scottsdale Money Clubs, the most playable to me.  They were shut down this summer.  The changes to the course included a much needed lowering of the fourth green.  The old was too severe and with any wind, balls would not stay on the green.  The other major change was to I believe 14 - a par 4 dog leg left that runs North to South.  Changes were largely centered around increased bunkering off the tee left to prevent bombers from cutting the corner.

With the addition of Whisper Rock's new Fazio course, will anyone play the other one?  Not because the new one is that good.

Finally, with Desert Forrest consistently recognized as the best desert layout, why can it not be duplicated?  It was built in 1962, involving little money and movement of ground.

[Tony Petersen]

  I will check with Roger Braesher, the former Sup at Cochise. He's in charge of the new Engh project at Vistancia. I have a feeling it will be a great course. Intrawest in involved, and they seem to know what they are doing from a Mgmt. standpoint. For some reason I thought it was opening in March '05, after talking the Roger, but I will find out and let you guys know.

The new Fazio at Whisper Rock will tip out at 7800 yards, according to a couple guys that caddy there. I've driven the back 9, and the front 9 is grown in. Not a fan of Faz, but I know it will a good course. It's a player club, and they won't stand for anything else.

Matt, you are so correct about handicaps being exposed early. #1 is a fairly tough 4, with a pot bunker in front and extreme collection areas back and right. Don't go long, and the bailout to the left is small, to say the least. #2 is a tough 5 because of the green complex on the top of the hill. right and left off the green and you are left with a 70 yards flop to a small, kidney shaped green. Finally #3 is a 512 yard 4 that plays downhill, but still leaves a long iron for the second shot.

As far as Geronimo, the back tees are still alive and well, referred to as the "tournament" tees, though only the staff plays from them. Bottom line is you can make the courses at DM TOUGH if you choose the back of the back tees. We're talking about something like a 77.5/155 at Chiri, though Scott Verplank comes out and seems to always shoot around 61-63. INCREDIBLE, if you ask me.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

If you think Outlaw is severe with its greens then you must hurry over to Lost Dunes in Michigan because Doak has many of the same features -- some of which are even a bit more intense.

The 2nd hole you mentioned makes the player really think long and hard about going for the green FOR THE VERY REASON you wrote about. If you come up short and fail to fly the ball ALL THE WAY to the target you certainly will suffer a fate you described. There's nothing wrong with that. Plenty fo courses -- Pinehurst #2 among them -- will flunnel balls away in different directions when you fail to execute properly.

Clearly, the focus on ball positioning is a major element at Outlaw -- it is not in the same penal motif as some of the earliest designs Jack did not at Desert Mountain but in his design career. The course offers plenty of playable width -- lost balls are quite a bit less of an issue there. You also have greens with appropriate spacing in the nature of their contours -- you simply must analyze the situation in the fairway to avoid being in the wrong place.

To be fair -- I believe the greenside at the short downhill par-4 9th is a bit much. I know of many players who simply bail out way right so that they can increase the playing angle they have into that green -- the actual width of the green when played from the fairway may be too exacting for any type of short pitch made.

The issue for Outlaw deals with the perception that Jack is unable to "get it" regarding the additional playing angles and enhanced playability features he has recently included with a number of his designs that I have played. Too many people see Jack in the "past" when design is concerned. Outlaw proves IMHO that Jack certainly does get it and I would rate the course far higher than others.

The thing about Outlaw is you get some of the most compelling holes juxtaposed with the awesome scenery of the Tonto National Forest and the dramatic views of Four Peaks, Pinnacle Peak and the Superstition Mountains. Frankly, here's a layout that if "another" more favored architect had designed the course the fanfare tied to Outlaw would be even more considerable and touted.  One last thing on the course -- I am a mega fan of the par-4 17th -- a delicious par-4 of no more than 385 yards. Jack provides an array of options and the positioning of the left fairway bunker is a classic.

comtngolf:

Can you tell me if the extreme pad tee for the 16th at Geronimo is still in use? The tee is located on the far side closer to where you walk when playing the par-5 15th.

I do agree with you the extreme tips on courses such as Renegade, Geronimo and Chirichua can be daunting. Frankly, I believe the 2nd at Chirichua to be one of the best short par-4's that Jack has ever designed -- in addition -- that 18 gets little attention although it does have a stunning array of holes -- I mean, the back-to-back long par-4 at the 8th and 9th (?) are really well done holes.

Gents:

Mea culpa on my error on the time table for the new Engh course.

[Tom Renli]

Matt,
I understand and respect the concept.  Simply too severe for me and apparently the membership.  A five iron that lands a yard further is 10 feet vs a yard shorter has a 70 pitch to a green on a hill.  I think for a lot of the membership this is a second club to play in the winter.  They are mid handicappers, some haven't played since their summer club closed, and can not dial in shots with the precision required.

I am actually looking forward to playing it again after seeing it once.  You are correct, this is moving forward for Jack from a design perspective.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

The issue for many people when playing Outlaw is that they have been CONDITIONED to handle all of the earlier stuff that Jack has created.

Like I said -- if you put someone else's name as the architect of Outlaw -- especially the ones that get preferential treatment here on GCA -- the whole aspect of Outlaw would be touted as the second coming of Christ!

Hats off to Lyle Anderson is not permitting housing and in giving the course plenty of width versus the style of other Desert Mountain layouts. Yes, the greens are tough but keep in mind on a number of holes you do have downhill landing zones that will propel your ball even closer to the target.

Outlaw has both the scenic views of what AZ desert layouts should have and the strategic qualities that Jack hasadded over the shelf life of his design career.

The only two holes I'm not a fan of is the par-5 8th and 16th holes. They are both similar in terms of their presentation and strategic implications.

All in all, Outlaw is the kind of course I'm looking forward to playing again very soon.

[Marty Bonnar]

Did any of you guys who have played at Whisper Rock notice if any of the Caddies were Scottish? They were recruiting at Kingsbarns this Summer for this current Winter period and I just wondered if any of the guys went over (I know I should have!!!)

FBD.

[mikes1160]

In regards to Outlaw, the serenity and the vistas on the course are simply phenomenal. It was one of the purest golf experiences I've had, certainly in the PHX/Scottsdale area.

Tom R., I understand your reaction - playing it the second time made all the difference in the world.

If I were a member at DM (hah), I'd be ecstatic that all of the other members hated it - we hardly saw anyone out there on a gorgeous afternoon early last month.

Matt, I'm not sure housing was ever an option with this course, since the land surrounding it is government property, I believe.....comtngolf, what the heck do you do at DM that allows you to get out 5 times a week??? Lucky bastard....

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You raise a point I never saw -- the land is government -owned and this is likely the reason why Lyle Anderson didn't see fit to throw more palaces upon that property.

IMHO, Outlaw belongs among the top 5-6 Jack Nicklaus courses I have played. How the course doesn't get more attention boggles my mind.

People have such a disjointed understanding of desert golf in the Valley of the Sun and much of that comes from what the early efforts were since so many followed in the mold of Desert Highlands -- the protoype of "either or" type golf where you must hit the limited amount of acreage or you simply lose the ball or have to take an unplayable.

Outlaw demonstrates a clear desire to tie the golfer to the AZ landscape and to do so with a layout that doesn't simply say "either or."

Let me give a good example of empty design versus that of Outlaw. Anyone playing Mirabel can see what I am saying. Here you have two (2) courses immediately adjacent to each other and the fundamental character is so utterly different. Mirabel is the poster child of Tom Fazio lite golf. Yes, you have a few holes of note but there's nothing really compelling with the design -- clearly it's better than what Greg Norman originally envisioned, but it's just another Discovery land project that tries to take the person to the desert with a golf offering that is merely functional but far from fascinating.

When you step on the tee at Outlaw the game begins in a solid manner. The opening hole is quite tame in terms of tee-to-green dilemmas but the green is where Jacks put you on notice that the game is going to be one where you are seriously challanged with your approach shots. As comtngolf pointed out if you come up short you will have to be quite talented to secure par -- heaven help the person who errs too long!

IMHO, anyone venturing to the Scopttsdale area needs to play Outlaw, Chirichua also at Desert Mountain and Whisper Rock. They are three superb layouts and they demonstrate how the elements of the harsh desert landscape can work in harmony when a golf design is truly thought out.

One last item to those who know -- I have not played GC of Scottsdale but I have heard a range of opinions. Is the course really closer to the vision of what Outlaw and Whisper Rock is, or is the layout more attune to the "either or" type of shotmaking that lies at the heart of a number of other desert courses. Thanks ...

[Tom Renli]

Matt

Golf Club of Scottsdale is still target desert golf or "either/or" golf.  I can hit it very crooked, however I feel comfortable there.  The fairways are generally wide or at a minimum give you a place to miss.  The 3rd and 4th holes are examples.  Both par fours, you can lay back to a wide fairway and have 150+ in or bomb off the tee to leave a 100 to 120 second.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

If I may ask you to step out "on a limb" -- what are the best courses you have played in the Valley of the Sun and if you could please rate them from your best to next best (no more than 10 would be great) it would help me understand what you prefer?

Can someone tell me how different Stone Canyon (another Moorish design) is from GC of Scottsdale. I have played the former and was not entirely sold on its qualities. Thanks ...

[Tom Renli]

1 Desert Forest
2 Forest Highlands
3 Gallery
4 Phoenix CC
5 GC Scottsdale
6 Arizona CC

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I asked you for a listing of courses in the Valley of the Sun (immediate Scottsdale area) -- not for the entire state (e.g. Forest Highlands, Gallery, etc, etc.

Thanks ...

[Tom Renli]

7 Talking Stick North
8 Troon G&CC
9 Quinterro
10 Troon North Monument

[mikes1160]

Tom,

I played Arizona CC last year and can't say I'd really go back - it's really (IMHO) a fairly unremarkable course, that's way too tight - kinda reminded me of Indian Wells CC. And although I thought Phoenix CC was interesting from a historical standpoint (1899, right? - and I golfed right behind Alice Cooper, which was a watershed event), I'm not sure I'd put it in my top ten for the PHX/Scottsdale area.  

Can't wait to play Whisper Rock.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Any reason why the following Scottsdale area courses didn't get a mention on your listing ...

Whisper Rock
Outlaw (Desert Mountain)
Chirichua (Desert Mountain)
Silverleaf

Would love to learn why you think so highly of Quintero?

[Tony Petersen]

  As far as I am concerned, modern "desert" golf does not get any better than Chiricahua or Geronimo at Desert Mountain. I've played Troon, Troon N. (both), D. Highlands, Mirabel, Estancia and they are no better than what we have at DM. Now, I haven't had the pleasure of playing Quintero, which I've heard is a strong design, and have to admit that I love playing the Lower course at Whisper Rock as I am a lefty and tend to think that Phil is the SHIT!!! The GC at Scottsdale has some amazing greens, and the bottom line is that it kicked my ass from the tips And I've heard good things about Silverleaf, as well as DC Ranch.

Now, Desert Forest is a blast, and Apache Stronghold would be the modern version of DF in that very little land was moved, fairways and green complexes tend to blend into the surrounds. Not quite as contrived and perfect as the upper crest clubs in N. Scottsdale and that's what makes it special.

Of course, that's just one opinion.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I've just learned that Mirabel no longer requires real estate ownership for membership. Troon G&CC did away with that requirement earlier this year. I think it's a sign that the high end market may be slipping.

Does anyone know how memberships are selling at TGC Scottsdale?

Steve

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

This is all wonderful information about the Scottsdale area and if I ever get there I will use it. I will be in Tuscon over the holidays this year and do plan to play some golf. What are the thoughts on the Tuscon area?

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