Tom Weiskopf's The Falls At Lake Las Vegas

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Scott:

Your memory is much better than the Emperor who seems to have developed the "shoot from the hip" approach rather than realizing what's been posted previously by me on the courses in question.

Matt, Thankfully, I have no interest what-so-ever of what golf courses you have and haven't been to. This isn't an insult either, its simply because I just don't care.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

You need to read what other people have actually posted before throwing forward such inane chatter like ...

" ...but the course would surely woo the pants off of the Matt Ward crowd--so much, that I refuse to give him any pertinent information what-so-ever."

Tommy -- your too bright of a guy to make such mis-informed comments. Or maybe I'm just wrong to think that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
It was my mistake to think that this course, one that was somewhat enjoyable to play, was excellently maintained and had a enjoyable staff and crew would do anything but give you nothing but happy-happy/joy-joy thoughts. I was just going for the typical Matt Ward-ian virtues of driving challenge from the tee and interest in the greens.

Since you think the green is too small on that greensite, what size green do you think would have better fit in there? As far as I could tell, the green was the most interesting feature on the course with some intelligently placed green-front knobs on other holes that are anything but "mailed-in."

Does the 13th work? Well, its always been my opinion that the best holes are the most talked about holes that meet various opinions. This thinking would also make Shadow Creek #17 a great hole, which of course it isn't!   There are things that work on it and things I'm not sure do. One thing for sure is I don't judge on just how I myself played it.

It may have been a perfect bunkerless golf hole, but then it wouldn't be as dramatic for some. It would have opened-up another, more suitable way to play the hole, because instead of facing a blind lay-up where you almost dead in the water (Just too penal) it would have forced a more friendly lay-up that enforced a full-stroke. Not two or three strokes for the people who aren't fortunate to end up on the right side (the left) of the fairway.

Is it a bad course--no, I think there are a lot worse, and I'm no Weiskopf fan (the personality) I think its a fun course to play with some WOW factor to entice those who don't study golf architecture and just like to play and be further impressed.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Good. I'm glad you're back to the task at hand -- discussing the merits / leck thereof of courses.

Onward ...

The 13th at The Falls fails because the challenge for the top player -- as Tom Brown indicated -- cannot be accomodated if they decide to go for the green from the tee. It's just not inviting enough -- if you were to play the 13th at Wolf Creek / Mesquite (NV) you would see the differences very quickly in this particular regard. A superb "short" par-4 allows for the ultimate reward but the risk of doing such at The Falls puts that issue out of reach except for the insane!

Let me also mention that the extreme location and small size of the green at the 13th makes for a too demanding play for Joe Sixpack -- especially if you more than 100 yards away which frankly happens plenty of times even with the sheer elevation drop-off. The target presents an "all-or-nothing" outcome that I see as being a bit extreme. Don't you?

I mean how penal can a hole be if you miss by just a few feet and end up in rocks or have some unique "bounce" carry your ball up all the way into the area where the rams galivant!

Tommy -- regarding my interests, to be quite frank, I don't have any discernible "profile" as you and others are wont to believe -- e.g. the 8,000+ yard course with high course rating / slope, etc, etc. I have a vast array of different styles / patterns that I like from a range of designers. I enjoy Weiskopf layouts when done well -- his recent efforts at Lahontan and Silverleaf are two that I have enjoyed. But there are times when Weiskopf uses his own style and fails to capture one's attention with something a bit more than a tired cut'n paste result.

Look at the so-called "driveable" 14th hole -- where is the strategy on that hole? It's just the grip and rip gunslinger type hole. Do you really see it being at the level of other Weiskopf driveable par-4's like the one he did jointly with Jay Moorish at the 17th at the Canyon Course at Forest Highlands, to name just one example.

What about having the 9th and 18th BOTH as par-5's and both following the same direction and relative length.

The Falls is actually a better course on the front side -- the land is more gentle and the hole more engaging / consistent than the back but overall The Falls doesn't have the consistency or uniqueness that elevates it to anything more than just Vegas razzmatazz! You and I do agree on that point when you said, "I think its a fun course to play with some WOW factor to entice those who don't study golf architecture and just like to play and be further impressed."

Regarding the 13th green's size -- if memory serves I believe there might be room to extend the target a bit more to thge left so that shots that are not fired at the stick have an opportunity to come nearer to the target. Tommy -- you say the "best holes" are the ones that are the "most talked about" well I have to say that sometimes the "most talked about" holes are ones that are so controversial and fail to meet a standard of consistency in terms of the outcomes they produce. That's what I see with the 13th.

By the way -- thanks Tommy for the back-handed comment on rating courses simply by the way one plays the course -- I appreciate the attempt to link me in this context but I believe you're firing blanks on that point.

We do agree that The Falls is not a bad layot -- but for someone plunking down $200 or more to play during high season I'd much rather have them venture over to the sister layout at Reflection Bay or trek over to Mesquite for Wolf Creek and get some high octane thrills and holes that can't be duplicated elsewhere.

[Bill_McBride]

Would anyone who has played there please respond to my question about what appears to be an abrupt transition between irrigated fairway/rough and the desert areas?  From the photos it does appear to be a bit harsh.  How about a comment?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
The reason why I didn't answer was I wasn't quite sure of what you were getting at. It could never be confused as being natural, even though its got all of the natural environment about the place.  The rock walls found on many holes are proof of this.

Trying to compare this to Talking Stick would be equal to comparing Matt Ward to Alister MacKenzie.

But joking aside, the one negative about this place is that the front nine is totally created and it didn't need to be. It was on good land that seems to have been topped with fill with a routing that was less then inspired. It goes down and then comes up, goes past and then comes back. Its walkable--for now, and then once the houses go up, its going to be a walk between neigborhoods on many of the holes. Instead of utilizing a Scotsdale or Phoenix-like feel where the houses blend in with the nature of this pretty neat place--I'm sure the different models will have names like, "The Mediterranean" or "The Oaks" simply because that's what housing tracts do.

But now I'm talking about houses, which will obliterate this site very soon. You can see from some of the pictures, the work going on.

The transition areas are simply the existing or newly shaped to look like the existing. Lots of dry creek beds running about the place because that's what modern architecture firms now do--they create masterful drainage plans and don't rely on any of the naturally found land to dictate the GREAT golf holes that may or could have existed. So, yes, it isn't nearly as nice as Talking Stick or Apache Stronghold.

Matt,
Do you have Tom Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course? If so, open up the chapter where he talks of George Thomas' La Cumbre #16. A great hole that only exists now in a much less then describable golf hole. Now without trying to compare the two holes which are nothing alike, do notice that the strategy of a small green that can be attacked with a well pronounced drive can acheive a remarkable advantage at birdie. If the golfer is forced to lay-up, then he will have the daunting task of getting on the green in three with only par as the goal. Both had or have small greens. The difference between these two holes (not in design, but in theory) is that when laying up for the second, its just too way penal of a shot. If the golfer tries to go for the green, it is absolutely death with no recovery.

So, I don't have as much as a problem with the hole as some of you other then the drop-down nature of the tee shot which I'm not a fan of elevated tee shots because it usually means the hole is unwalkable, as well as the site. Driving down Lombard Street in Las Vegas isn't my idea of playing golf on great land--I get that enough here on too many of the new courses here on unhospitable land in SoCal.

[Thomas_Brown]

Bill_McBride - Transition?
There is none.  Particularly brutal on the par 4 10th where the fairway slope feeds you into a cart path and rocks.
I'm a little bit wild, but was having a good driving day and I lost 3 balls into the rocks from the tee.  But, there is variety - Some of the tee shots Tommy didn't photo are wide open where nobody could lose a ball.

Matt - Now I have to say that Tiger Woods or Vijay couldn't reach #13 at Wolf Creek from the drive - It's not driveable by anyone.  And the cape aspect behind that Wolf Creek terrain makes it worse in the aspect of visibility.  The green at #13 Wolf Creek has many more options.

Also, as tastes go, I thought the back 9 at the Falls was better than the back.  I liked the 3rd hole, but just didn't connect with any of the other holes.

[redanman]

The two photos of #7 are reminiscent of #5 or 6 at Starr Pass in Tucson using the ravine to control from which angle + distance makes for the better approach on a given day.  (It was the only really good hole at Starr Pass.)

Desert golf has its limitations.  Mountain golf has its limitations.  The two together, well...... they're entertainment, so desert + mountain golf outside of Las Vegas is fit to a tee.

Course looks a helluva lot more entertaining and better use of cash and time than a casino unless you have that sad disease of gambling.