Pls help me understand

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

Would enjoy the opportunity to play -- you may want to play Galloway National in the AC area -- it is really well done and one of TF's best overall designs IMHO and that of others.

If you compare the two courses you can see how much detail as included within Galloway but was left on the cutting floor at Pine Hill. By all rights -- if the same details were present at Pine Hill the likely outcome would have made for a far superior course than what is there now.

Like I said before -- a pity.

[JakaB]

The sloping terrain that the course is built on provides more than enough challenge on the greens. There is something subtle and elegant to a green that accepts and or rejects certain lines of play based on the lay of the land as opposed to greens which are severe and manufactured in an effort to astound and impress and say, "look at me . . ."  

I think what Ted wrote above is pure genius...something often missed by the one time player on a modern course...they see it in Raynor and Ross but refuse to even look for it in the modern scheme of things...

[Mike_Cirba]

The sloping terrain that the course is built on provides more than enough challenge on the greens. There is something subtle and elegant to a green that accepts and or rejects certain lines of play based on the lay of the land as opposed to greens which are severe and manufactured in an effort to astound and impress and say, "look at me . . ."  

I think what Ted wrote above is pure genius...something often missed by the one time player on a modern course...they see it in Raynor and Ross but refuse to even look for it in the modern scheme of things...

John;

Nobody's looking for severe and manufactured greens.  Nobody loves low-profile greens that look as though the natural land was just cut shorter for a greeen than I do.  

We are looking instead for evidence of thoughtfulness, creativity, tie-in to approach demands, a hint of inspiration and/or originality.  The 1st green at Pine Hill is a good example, but many others are not.

Matt called it "attention to details" and that's as good a description as I can come up with.

Also, almost any green has "subleties" if kept at high stimp speed, even just due to natural settling.  I don't think the architect or shapers should get much credit for that.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Could it be that the greens at PH are what they are because it was built as public "country club for a day?" Given that, the last time I played there this past year was the day before the US Open qualifier and the greens and fairways were fast and firm-unlike the many previous times I played PH. In fact, that was always the complaint about PH- too wet. Maybe now that it's going private, members will demand FF.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

New Jersey has plenty of "country club for a day" type courses and I can't think of one that has such exciting property as Pine Hill -- save for Ballyowen to name just one --that created putting surfaces with so little internal and external qualities.

I don't doubt that when the course is prepared for a major qualifier they can "speed up" the greens and make them firmer but the greens in their day-to-day reality should encompass a range of qualities that impinge upon the player when considering their approach. At Pine Hill -- with just a few exceptions -- it's simply a big circular disc and little segmentation to differentiate shotmaking should the player err too much to one side or the other. Frankly, I don't know if missing to one side or the other matters in terms of recovery on a bulk of the holes there.

Pine Hill cuts an impressive picture -- one can argue the terrain there is on par with what you have at Pine Valley. Sadly, the intricate details and world class routing and juxtaposition of all the minor elements were left out at the former and clearly reinforced with the latter.

P.S. If Pine Hill is indeed too wet for everyday play it joins a good list of other NJ daily fee courses that suffere the same fate. I don't link the issue of "lacking crucial details" to turf preparation -- although both are important you can deal with the latter quite easily -- the former is a bit more complicated and often permanent.

[Ted Kramer]

The sloping terrain that the course is built on provides more than enough challenge on the greens. There is something subtle and elegant to a green that accepts and or rejects certain lines of play based on the lay of the land as opposed to greens which are severe and manufactured in an effort to astound and impress and say, "look at me . . ."  

I think what Ted wrote above is pure genius...something often missed by the one time player on a modern course...they see it in Raynor and Ross but refuse to even look for it in the modern scheme of things...

John;

Nobody's looking for severe and manufactured greens.  Nobody loves low-profile greens that look as though the natural land was just cut shorter for a greeen than I do.  

We are looking instead for evidence of thoughtfulness, creativity, tie-in to approach demands, a hint of inspiration and/or originality.  The 1st green at Pine Hill is a good example, but many others are not.

Matt called it "attention to details" and that's as good a description as I can come up with.

Also, almost any green has "subleties" if kept at high stimp speed, even just due to natural settling.  I don't think the architect or shapers should get much credit for that.

The credit should be given to the architect who uses the natural setting well. The man upstairs gets credit for the land, but the good architect should get credit for using what is there intelligently.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me regarding Pine Hill. Different opinions and points of view are great and should always be welcomed . . .With that being said, if you are basing your judgement of the greens on how they look, as opposed to how they play, you are doing yourself and the readers of your ratings a disservice. And I don't think you can have formed a good opinion about how the greens play after only 1 or 2 rounds.

A course like this needs to be played a few times before holes and the greens really start to reveal themselves. I am not going to list all 18 holes for the purpose of this discussion, but since it seems that first green is reasonably well accepted, I'll offer #2.

#2, Mid Length Par3
- Green is built into the side of a hill on the left, everything slopes off of that hill towards the front of the green and the bunker right.
- Almost a false front on the green connecting to a closely mown collection/run-up aea, your eyes force you to want to play left to avoid the big bumkers right, but left in the rough on that hill is a VERY tough place to get up and down from, a shot landing short of the green is in better shape than one played right, left or past a hole cut in the front, while left isn't quite as bad when the hole is cut in the back.
-After the relatively smooth opening par5 first, #2 looks like a simple mid iron approach, looks can be deceiving, there is NOTHING SIMPLE about the 2nd green.
-There is no way that you can see all of this from the tee and I doubt you'd recognize it after only 1 or 2 rounds.

My point is this, the greens and green complexes might not look like much, but they do a very good job of rewarding good shots and penalizing bad ones, just as good greens should.

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

For what it's worth -- I never base a course simply from how it "looks" -- I go by the only method I consider foolproof -- actually playing the course -- preferably multiple times to get a solid read -- no pun intended -- on what is there. I've done that.

Ted -- there's one thing missing in all the discussion -- you need to play the other key courses that Pine Hill competes against to see how it truly stacks up.

I credit you for the example you gave -- e.g. the 2nd. It's one of the few par-3's at the course with character. You seem to forget the others that are simply vanilla -- like the par-3 5th, 8th and especially the 13th! The holes are in nice sections of the course but the devil is in the details and each lacks in that regard.

Ted -- take a stroll over to Twisted Dune, Ballyowen and Hawk Pointe, all Jersey public courses to name just a few, and you will see the virtues of greens tied back into the greater aspect of the hole. These courses don't just simply create a "green site" separate and distinct from the greater aspects of what the hole entails.

I'm not saying Pine Hill is a bad golf course -- although others may believe that. However, when you stack up the totality of what it is there's no doubt it's still a special place -- the terrain is simply gorgeous. Just keep in mind the pre-course hype -- having a public course immediately near Pine Valley was really quite extensive -- I know because I attended many of the functions leading up to the course's opening. Clearly, when you have that kind of PR hype the outcome needs to be no less. Sadly, that didn't turn out the way I and others have already expressed.

Pine Hill still remains a top ten fixture among all public courses in NJ and even with its upcoming new status as a private club it's still a worthy play for those in the area. Just realize that I define a "worthy" play a bit less than one designated as a "must" play.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

For what it's worth -- I never base a course simply from how it "looks" -- I go by the only method I consider foolproof -- actually playing the course -- preferably multiple times to get a solid read -- no pun intended -- on what is there. I've done that.

Ted -- there's one thing missing in all the discussion -- you need to play the other key courses that Pine Hill competes against to see how it truly stacks up.

I credit you for the example you gave -- e.g. the 2nd. It's one of the few par-3's at the course with character. You seem to forget the others that are simply vanilla -- like the par-3 5th, 8th and especially the 13th! The holes are in nice sections of the course but the devil is in the details and each lacks in that regard.

Ted -- take a stroll over to Twisted Dune, Ballyowen and Hawk Pointe, all Jersey public courses to name just a few, and you will see the virtues of greens tied back into the greater aspect of the hole. These courses don't just simply create a "green site" separate and distinct from the greater aspects of what the hole entails.

I'm not saying Pine Hill is a bad golf course -- although others may believe that. However, when you stack up the totality of what it is there's no doubt it's still a special place -- the terrain is simply gorgeous. Just keep in mind the pre-course hype -- having a public course immediately near Pine Valley was really quite extensive -- I know because I attended many of the functions leading up to the course's opening. Clearly, when you have that kind of PR hype the outcome needs to be no less. Sadly, that didn't turn out the way I and others have already expressed.

Pine Hill still remains a top ten fixture among all public courses in NJ and even with its upcoming new status as a private club it's still a worthy play for those in the area. Just realize that I define a "worthy" play a bit less than one designated as a "must" play.

Again, thanks for the detailed response.
I'm looking forward to playing some of the courses that you mentioned next year so I can expand my frame of reference.
Interestingly enough, most people who I have spoken to didn't think that Twisted Dunes held a candle to Pine Hill, and like I said, I'm looking forward to forming my own opinion.

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

I'd like for those who see Pine Hill being above Twisted Dune to itemize their thoughts. Maybe I missed something that they see. I will say this the work of Twisted Dune is indeed something very special from much of the formulaic efforts you see with a good number of Jersey Shore layouts.

Look forward to teeing it up in '05 !

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt and Ted

As much as I like PH , I'd rate TD higher. This has nothing to do with the fact my wife and I recently played TD and she shot an 89!

As I posted before, if PH had more "interesting" greens a la Hidden Creek or Black Mesa, for example, the slope from the whites or blues would be in the 140s. Who needs that?

I now remember speaking to a GD rater after he played PH. He didn't give it high marks because of "shot values"  and obviously walkabilty. I guess there were too many straight away holes for him.

If I remember correctly, PH did not make GD's Best New Upscale Public Top 10. I was surprised at that outcome.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

I love Twisted Dune, but I haven't been there in about 2-3 years now so I can't vouch for the normal conditioning.

Steve..are they keeping it firm?

[Ted Kramer]

Interesting comments on Twisted Dune. . .
Now I'm really excited to play it, and I'm even happier about the fact that it is connected to the Club Max deal.

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

In case any of you are curious, from what I know there are no plans to bring Twisted Dune private. The current plan is for it to remain a daily fee course. But the Club Max members do get a good price break, I'm not sue about preffered tee times.

-Ted

[Mike_Cirba]

Ted;

I think you'll really enjoy TD.  I brought a bunch of these GCA numbskulls down a few years back and we all had a blast.  

I'm normally not one for moving lots of dirt and generally eschew a lot of man made shaping, but the site was dead flat and lifeless so....similar to Whistling Straits...if you're going to do it, do it well.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

TD was indeed FF the both times I played there this year.

I got the $55 deal. In season. on T,W&Th for those of us over 55. What a deal!
A fun course to play.
Steve

[Jason Mandel]

I played twisted 3 or 4 times this summer, but have only played the front 9, since each time ive went with friends on a late sat or sun afternoon.  they couldn't have been nicer, charing usi no more than 25 bucks, including cart to play 9 late in the day during busy summer weekends.

the 9 i have played are great, the course is def firm and fast, the greens werent in the best shape but they werent in bad shape either.

their are some really strong holes out there.

cant wait to play it again next summer, def enjoyed it more than blue heron pines east.

jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave;

Because you're wrong.    

I love Fazio's World Woods Pine Barrens and his Galloway National and rate them both within the top 30 courses built by ANYONE since 1960.  I'm sure there are others that he's built that are in that category and I definitely seek out his work.

I've played about 15 of his courses and some of them that weren't meant to be world-beaters are still very good and successful endeavors, such as Oyster Bay on Long Island.

It's just that not all of his courses that try to be superstars make that stratosphere and end up to be the 5s and 6s of the world.  No harm, no foul..it's just the reality.  (see Ridge at Back Brook).  

If you get to NJ, it's worth a play, but I also bet you'd agree.

[JakaB]

Shivas,

You forgot the main slam against Pine Hill...the marketing department over hyped it...

[Mike_Cirba]

Yeah John...that's it.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Glad you could join the discussion ...

Let me attempt to answer your questions ...

I am not the one suggesting that Pine Hill be NGLA or Pine Valley. Dave -- the folks promoting the place were the ones to quickly point out how close they were to the world's #1 layout. I frankly can't see how Golf Magazine lists the place #31 among all public courses in the nation. The bar for competition in NJ is quite high and I don't see Pine Hill being better than at least 5-6 other public courses here.

Pine Hill doesn't have "minimalist" greens -- they are simply empty vessels (with few exceptions) that have no direct tie-in to the shots played as approaches. It's hit it anywhere in almost all situations and you go from there. I'm not suggesting the course have greens banked like Turn 4 at Daytona but the greens are simply without any character that ties into good or bad shotmaking.

Fazio did a solid job at a course not far from Pine Hill -- Galloway National. There the level of details is one of his best efforts IMHO. If you should play both of them I believe you would be able to observe what I and others have just mentioned.

The issue for me on Fazio layouts is the absence of strategic overlays for all types of players -- a layout that goes beyond the "scenic" landscaping that often bears no direct correlation to what you need to in terms of shot execution.

There are instances when Fazio provides the kind of shotmaking / scenic linkages but from the ones I have personally played the array of courses that would make for "must plays" is no more than 15 of the 50+ I have played.

[Ted Kramer]

Would any of you be kind enough to explain to me in a post or private message how to include picturs in my posts. I'd like to add some pictures from the Pine Hill website in order to refute some claims about the "empty vesssel" nature of the greens.

And I want to say something else, I'm not trying to keep this debate alive for the sake of being right, I'm just enjoying the different opinions being shared . . .if you guys are bored with the topic feel free to tell me.

-Ted

[John Goodman]

Dave, what's the "then type in" part?  Didn't come through on your post.

[Ted Kramer]

Well, I'm hoping that there will be a picture above what I'm writing, and thanks Dave & Mike for the how to . . .

18th at Pine Hill

Now I could have chosen a bunch of greens for this response, but I don't have a ton of pics at my disposal. The pic above is from the Pine Hill website.

The 18th is a much better than average, I'll go as far as to say that the 18th is an excellent finishing hole. There is a "bite off as much as you can chew" aspect to the tee shot, and then an uphill approach to a skyline green (not a view of the Philly skyline, a skyline a green in the architectural sense). The green slopes gently from back to front and right to left with a run-up area on the left side. The right side is proctected by a bunker. This green is a perfect compliment to the entire hole. After hitting a good drive to the middle of the fairway options abound . . .
**challenge a right pin over the bunker
**play safer to the middle of the green and try a 30 ft. putt up the hill to that same right hole location
**run a low punch through the run-up area to back a left pin(pictured)
**fly it all the way back to a back pin without going over and forcing a tough up and down
**run the ball up to a front left pin
**hit it a bit past a front pin and maybe spin it back using the gentle slope of the fairway

The green does not sway and or heave. It is a relatively tame surface and the green complex is very clear in laying out both option and strategy. I have found the green and green complex to offer playable options from approaches played with both long and short irons. From the tips I've loved the idea of using that little run-up area when playing my approach from 190 yards after a drive and been have been punished by pushing that shot into the right front bunker. I have also been faced with the fear of going long trying to fly it to a back pin with shorter irons after either really good drives or positional 3 woods from the up tees.

The 18th green is nothing even close to an "empty vessel". It is not necessarily the attention getter of the the hole, although I love the look from the fairway, but it certainly rounds out an excellent finisher in a very satisfying fashion.

-Ted

[Andy Hughes]

Damn MikeC, this pic of Twisted Dune looks awfully Rees-ish, what with the mounding running down the length of the hole on both sides and all  

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

Help me out here -- you need to play the other candidates in public golf in Jersey to see where Pine Hill really fits. I believe I mentioned this -- as others have.

I certainly believe the bulk of the greens at Pine Hill are "empty vessels." Help me out -- where did I say all of them are like that? The answer -- I didn't.

Pine Hill does have a number of interesting and fun holes -- I did say that. I also mentioned that the back-to-back 9th and 10th holes are two of the most demanding you can play in public golf in the Garden State.

But, let's also be clear -- you're a member of the place. You have a vested interest -- a financial one as well -- to tout the nature of Pine Hill. I don't belong to the club -- in fact -- I don't have any close affiliation with any Jersey club.

The issue with Pine Hill is that the land is the key component of the course. The land is stellar -- arguably, the best among all sites in South Jersey with the possible lone exception being its world class neighbor. Now, look at the nature of the TOTALITY of the holes presented. Is the TOTALITY of the holes created equal to or beyond the the actual land. My answer is a resounding no.

I've personally played no less than 50+ TF courses throughout the USA. I salute the TF team for creating visually stirring places but their achilles heel in design is that sometimes the "picture" is the primary focus and the strategic implications / outcomes comes out in second place.

Pine Hill has plenty of good holes but there are also quite a few of them that are simply vanilla and pedestrian.

Ted -- I like the course -- I rated it 7th best public in the Jersey Golfer for a number of reasons -- but the idea that Pine Hill is beyond the qualities of other public courses in NJ (see Twisted Dune, Ballyowen, Hawk Pointe, etc, etc) or that it's beyond what TF has designed in the Garden State (see Galloway National) is far from reality.

One final thing -- Ted you mentioned about how the "look" of the 18th green is memorable. The TF design team understand the aspect of giving the golfer a "look" of impressive proportions. Seeing the Phillie skyline in the distance on a clear day when you stand on the home hole is grand stuff. Yet, the missing ingredient for me is the details -- if you really noticed the 18th has a few neat bunkers in front, but beyond that the absence of contours for putting and chipping demonstrates to me how much "look" can be hyped at the expense of details that grab you for the long haul.