Philadelphia Work Update

[Jason Mandel]

I know their are a few courses in Philly area that are undergoing some significant work, can anyone give us some updates.

1.  Overbrook- I know they have been closed since mid-summer and our own Kelly Moran is doing the work, whats the progress and what was the overall scope of the project?

2.  Llanarch- I forget who I heard was doing the work there, Steve Smyers maybe?  But they have been closed for a while now also and I was on the subway from an Eagles game and was talking to a member there and they said the course is going to be "awesome" when it was finished, what exactly was done?

3.  Manny's- how much work was done by Forse this year, I know this is going to be  a multiyear project.

4.  Kennett Square- was this a restoration effort of an old Ross, if so who did it and what was the extent?

Any others I forgot?  We've talked about it before but Philadelphia really seems to be having a reactionary effect, possibly all resulting from Aroniminks work?

Jason

[wsmorrison]

Jason, I believe it is Steven Kay at Llanerch.  I just spoke with Steve Smyers and he isn't working in the area as of now.
Llanerch apparently has 3 offers from developers to buy the property.

[Jason Mandel]

Sorry, I get Steven Kay and Smyers mixed up.
I had heard about Llanarch getting a few offers to develop the property.  Apparently from what i've heard each member would get approx 50K, have you heard anything about them possibly accpeting an offer?

A RADICAL rumor we heard last year when WM was very low on members is that Llanarch would sell and MERGE with us!  It really got some of us laughing, our shortcomings in the restaurant/bar area would certainly be fixed quickly.

Jason

[mike_malone]

 A friend of mine at Llanerch asked me "What is the cost to join Rolling Green,in case we sell here?'
  I said"How much money are you guys getting?"

[Mike_Cirba]

I really need to get over to Llanerch this year.  

As an old Findlay man, I'm curious, and the revisions/restoration by Kay has me more curiouser.  

[Jason Mandel]

Mike,

I'm curious as well, wouldn't it be ashame if Kay did all this work only to have the club SELL the place!

[wsmorrison]

Mike C,
McGovern made a lot of changes to Llanerch.  I think they had 27 holes at one time.  Do you know what remains of Findlay's design?  

Jason,
There was something in the Phila paper yesterday or today that confirms what I heard.  The number was around $30 million and would mean about $100 thousand per member.  I think they'll be a long waiting list at White Manor if it does happen.  I'm sure it would add to the list at Rolling Green as well.  Although I like the Llanerch course, in both cases it would be a huge step up.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
    I think that is before debt repayment which brings it down to 30-40 per member. I also heard it takes 80% of the vote to approve,not to mention the neighbors! Probably not likely. But it makes me happy that RG is offroad.

[Jason Mandel]

we've taken a couple of caddies so far, thats a start

[TEPaul]

I spent about half a day over at Llanerch with Steven Kay, the super, the construction crew etc about a month ago. A lot of rebunkering (some restoration) tree removal, green expansions etc. If the club plans on selling the place I can't imagine why they'd be going through this architectural process at this point.

[wsmorrison]

That's an awful lot of debt.  They'll still have money left over after joining some of the clubs in the district with openings.

[TEPaul]

We spent about half a day at Manufacturers about two months ago going around the course with the super looking at some of the particulars of the Forse restoration plan which really does look excellent. I think that plan is somewhat in the middle of the membership approval process. I hope the club approves the whole plan and maybe a few more things Forse & Co would like to add to it and that course is really going to be good!

[Jason Mandel]

Thanks Tom.  Manny's has always been a favorite of mine and I'm sure it will be magical once they open up the course a little bit.  I always thought tee to green Mannys was better than HV, but once you got to the greens, HV's were more interesting.

[Craig Disher]

Wayne,
In 1937, there were at least 27 holes - presumably Findlay's (C&W says McGovern's renovation was done in 1949). In 1950, at least 3 holes in the SW corner of the course (between N Ormond and N Edmonds) were abandoned. Houses are now on the site. The current aerial shows that perhaps 3 holes at the north end are also gone from the 1937 layout. The current remaining holes look almost identical - except for many lost bunkers - to the 1937 version. My guess is that the club wanted to reduce to 18 holes and sell off some property in the late 40s. McGovern's work doesn't seem to have affected Findlay's architecture on the holes still there - just the removal of 9 holes and possibly some bunkers.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There is some news about Commonwealth. Route 463,Horsham Road, is being widened and the road will become very close to the course on 3green, 4tee,4green,5green,6tee, 11green and 12tee. Also, the roadway adjacent to Willow Grove Naval Air Base to the left of the 1,2 and 3 holes will disappear and become grass.

Steve

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Craig the answer man    Did Brendan Byrne, the super ever contact you?  He's a bright guy and very interested in the architectural history.  I tried to reach him earlier and left a message.  I'll remind him to contact you if he hasn't done so.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne;

Craig beat me to the punch.  My understanding is that the work of McGovern at Llanerch is overstated and that there is quite a bit of Findlay still on the ground.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks Craig and Mike C.,

Very interesting.  I have a copy of a stick routing done by McGovern but never knew what existed prior.  Craig, you'll have to show me that photo some day.  Please  

We once asked Flynn's daughter if there was anybody her father didn't like...she was telling us all these great stories about his many friends and colleagues all of whom he seemed to really cherish as friends.  Without having to think about it, she said there was one person he couldn't stand.  It was J.B. McGovern!  I can't remember why though, I'll have to ask her.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

She didn't know why he didn't like or respect McGovern, she was just very sure he didn't. Call up Brenden Byrne and go over there and ask him to show you the old aerials they have--they're pretty interesting. I was particularly taken with the shared bunkering down the left side of #6 and the left side of #15. They didn't exactly restore that though. The 17th green looks good too and it's now a lot more reasonable with these speeds than it used to be.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re Ashbourne

I understand that members have received a mailing from ownership that they will propose to the township that the existing clubhouse be razed and a mid-rise condo tower with 200 units will be built to take its place. A new clubhouse will be built on the existing tennis courts located between the 1st and 10th holes. Those holes will be modified to accomodate the new clubhouse. This is maximizing land use.

Steve

[mike_malone]

 Some thoughts on the Llanerch work I saw-- They have opened up the course nicely. They have particularly opened up areas around the greens. Tree removal on #8 and #12,two par threes, is wonderful. Now one can fashion the shot they think is best.
    I saw the aerial briefly. Unfortunately, the most dramatic hole I saw on it is NLE. They have recovered some of the grass penisulas  in some bunkers that were in the aerial.

  It looks like they are deepening some of the greenside bunkers just through better use of the slopes already there.

     They will still have several areas were one will need to deal with trees-#7- for example.But they took down trees in the landing area (good) leaving the trees by the green-(interesting).

     I am quite certain the members will enjoy the course more,grass will be able to grow more easily,and views through the course are enhanced.

  There were a few fairway bunkers I did not like, but that's quibbling.

  Nice job!

[TEPaul]

Mike:

They actually took some trees out right near the green on #7 but there are still some there which sort of serve the purpose of "balancing" or making that new bunker on the left on the tee shot more functional and more strategically effective.