Most Level Best Course

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat's "got you" thread inspired me to wonder what course has the most level lies, and is still considered great, by you?

Most of the few great courses I have played don't have an ample number of level lies. I think there might be a total of 3 at Spyglass Hill   yet I can hardly remember having a hanging lie at Cypress Point.

I like a course that only doles out level lies in certain spots, so much so that when I do get a level lie, I don't know where to aim.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The most level course I can think of that is certainly very good, if not great, is Royal Antwerp.  It's often said to be a criticism of Royal Birkdale that it has so many level lies, though nothing like as many as Antwerp.  My recollection of New Zealand (UK course, not country) is that it is also exceptionally level.

[THuckaby2]

This is a damn good question.

As I review it in my mind, there aren't many hanging lies to be had at Rustic Canyon... are there?  Certain chips around greens, yes.  But for long shots, well... I can't think of any except maybe 14 and for sure 16.  

And that is a great course....

TH

[mark chalfant]

Inwood and Garden City. Inwood is a very good course with
numerous level lies. Garden City is a great course that has
many level lies. I used to think CC of Detroit was very good
but its been c. 20 years since Ive been to this Alison course.

[Eric_Dorsey]

this one is easy.

Colonial

[Jeff_Mingay]

Essex G&CC (Ross, 1929) in Windsor, Ontario - across the river from Detroit. A really, really flat golf course with eighteen remarkably individual green complexes that make for interesting golf.

Mark,

CC of Detroit is pretty flat throughout as well. Although, there's not much Alison left there.

[mark chalfant]

Adam, great question.
Westhampton (Raynor) is splendid and quite level.Good bunkering in spots that create nice angles.Also WH has great
contouring on greens that complement the relatively quiet
fairways.

[wsmorrison]

Muirfield is pretty darn flat

[THuckaby2]

Wayne - I immediately thought of Muirfield also, but the more thought I gave to it, the less flat it became in my mind.  Now there are no huge HILLS like at its neighbor Gullane, but there are lots of places where one doesn't have level lies... It's just more subtle... which if anything just adds to the greatness, wouldn't you say?

TH

[wsmorrison]

Yes, Tom.  I certainly would say that subtle features are often the most interesting.  That's one reason why I like Flynn's greens so much.  

But consider the opposite end of the spectrum.  If you play a course like Huntingdon Valley CC (suburban Phila) that plays around and in a large valley, there are many uneven lies that are easily recongizable yet demanding enough that even though you know what you have to do, it is the ability to do it that really is tested.  I think this extreme is fascinating as well.

It's been a few years since I was last at Muirfield.  I love the town and Greywalls is so interesting and a delight to stay at.  I can't quite recollect where on the course one finds the uneven lies.  I am usually in the deep hay and don't see much of the fairways there.

[THuckaby2]

Wayne - that makes great sense and you are right on.  It's been a year and a half since the wonderful day I spent at Muirfield, so perhaps my mind is wandering.  But I sure do remember having uneven lies... nothing outrageous, mind you, but enough to mess up a shot... I'm thinking of these (and I sure could have them wrong):

2 - downhill lie for 2nd shot
5 - sidehill left to right, particularly on left side of fairway
8 - downhill or sidehill depending on where tee shot goes
12 - dowhill or sidehill, again

I guess that's it.  Lots of chips can give problems also, but to me that doesn't count.

So maybe it does count as flat!

TH

[wsmorrison]

Flat or not, Tom, it sure is great.  With Muirfield, N. Berwick, Dunbar and the Gullane courses it sure is an awesome destination spot.  

The architecture of Greywalls and the gardens are spectacular.  Maybe my favorite hotel anywhere!

[THuckaby2]

That is really neat - thanks for posting that photo.  I haven't seen the inside of Greywalls but looking at it from the club it sure does look fantastic.

And yes, Muirfield is truly great in my book.  Those who decry it, well... they must have VERY high standards.

TH

[wsmorrison]

"Those who decry it, well... they must have VERY high standards."

That leaves more guest times available for us

The inside is classic not pretentious, which I like.  The music room and library are wonderful places to meet interesting folk and to sit and enjoy the fleeting treat of being at such a great place.

[THuckaby2]

VERY well said.  I can't imagine going to Scotland and NOT playing Muirfield, to be honest.. and it is a goal to someday stay at Greywalls.  I'm pretty good about meeting golf-related goals, too.

 

[wsmorrison]

Then I hope one of your golf-related goals is to visit the Philadelphia area someday in the not too distant future.

[THuckaby2]

Then I hope one of your golf-related goals is to visit the Philadelphia area someday in the not too distant future.

 
Be careful what you wish for, Wayne.  
I did go there once, three years ago, and got a little bite of your area (thanks to Messrs. Paul, Cirba, Vostinak et al) that just made me hunger for MORE MORE MORE... it remains on the wish/goal list to return...
 

TH

[john_stiles]

Many of the low country courses along South Carolina course are very level....  and I enjoy all of the following ....

Secession
Chechessee Creek
Yeamans Hall  (some small rolls here and there)
Charleston CC (11th green is somewhat elevated)
Kiawah Ocean Course

Secession is dead flat level everywhere.

However,  TOC may be the most level best course.

[THuckaby2]

John:

AHA!  I was waiting for someone to mention The Old Course.  I damn near did myself.  But... to me it's the poster course for appearing level but not really being so.  All those crinkles/folds/humps/hillocks make for a round where you get damn few level lies, methinks.  So whereas the sea level reading likely goes from 20 feet around 18 green down to 10 feet at 9 tee, well... it sure plays like a hilly course.

Or at least that's my take.

[Gene Greco]

Garden City GC immediately comes to mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

Pine Tree and Boca Rio.

GCGC is not flat.

Fairways with contour and/or pitch include:

# 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16,

[Steve Lapper]

Pat...

What about Hidden Creek?


S

[john_stiles]

TH,

I see your point about TOC and my lies were pretty flat this year (must have been fortunate). Even had flat lie at the 14th for each shot from fairway and got around the hummocks at 5th or 6th.  

You never add/subtract for uphill or downhill (except for 7th/11th perhaps) and have good chance for completely flat lie if you are down the fair-way. You can hit it down the middle and not have the ball bound across the fairway.  Going left or right almost guarantees an unlevel lie at TOC as all the little swales and dips seem more prevalent outside the fairway and the longer grass can hang the ball on the hummocks and humps.

For any course,  TOC is pretty level.  There are plenty of small features but you can go around with a tremendous number of flat lies.

TOC plays much flatter than Muirfield in my opinion.

I guess with my last visit playing Aberdeen, Panmure, Kings, Queens, Elie,    TOC felt very flat and played flat ( I guess due to my fortunate rolls).  

John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

I don't consider Hidden Creek flat.
Just look at # 10, 11, 12, 15 & 18 on the back
# 2, 4, 5, 8 & 9 on the front.

Ben Hogan called Pine Tree the best flat course in America.

That's not a bad endorsement.

[TEPaul]

Can't say about an entire course but once again, in my opinion, probably the best hole in the world created on a flat, blah, nothing, piece of landform is Riviera's #10!