Shrinkage continued/ Walking vs Riding Mowers

[gookin]

I hope to get some answers to the question I have asked at the end of my earlier post to "Shrinkage"

At Fox Chapel Golf Club we have taken most of our greens back to their original size with a little bit more left to do. I think reduced maintenance had been the clear motivation for shrinkage.  Currently, we are more focused on preserving the architectural integrity of our Raynor course. This absolute difference in the size of our putting surfaces is significant. While making this change we have dramatically changed the turning ability for triplex mowers on our putting surfaces. However, we continue to successfully use triplex mowers and handle the clean up pass with walkers (as discussed earlier).  Our estimate of the labor differential is 3 to 4 crew members for 2 1/2 hours vs 6 crew members for 3 1/2 hours.  Plus this allows us to more easily offer 7:00 am tee times which are in high demand at our club(particularly on weekends).  Another significant issue is that a crew of 3-4 is easier to manage than a crew of 6.  The quality of cut and the impact on compaction continues to be an open debate.

I would be interested in anyone thoughts on this issue.  I would appreciate it if your answer could address both quality and cost, particularly if you have quantified the hard dollar cost difference between walkers and riders.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

I think the answer lies in philosophy.

What does the club want ?

A superior product that costs a little more or a product that could be improved ?

A Mercedes costs more than a Buick.

The question is, can your budget tolerate the incremental increase in cost to maximize your product, can the membership afford, let's say $ 50,000 more a year ?

At 200 members, that's $ 20 more per month.
At 400 members, that's $ 10 more per month.

Don't let perceived cost efficiency compromise the quality of your product.

All too often the compaction and quality of cut issues cost more then $ 10 or $ 20 per month per member.

And, which method will most certainly result in future green shrinkage at a more rapid rate ?

[Brad Klein]

Interesting point about the quality of the crew you're managing. My understanding is that with the larger, triplex mowers, you're going to lose a little bit of the contour in the greens, esp. after you've topdressed and the sand works itself out in the surface.

The basic knock on ride-mowing is that you lose the intricate shapes of the edges. Wouldn't it be ironic if Seth Raynor's penchant for linear forms in putting surfaces makes triplex mowing of the edge easier than would be the case with Ross or Tillinghast? In any case, you still have the subtle issue of flattening and losing a little bit of the interior contours with triplex mowing.

[S. Huffstutler]

I triplex greens and walk mow the cleanup laps at my course. The cost difference between the machinery is pretty much a wash as you need at least twice as many walk mowers as triplexes to do the job. The real cost, as always, is in labor. With regard to quality, this debate continues with many advocates of walk mowing flatly stating that walk mowing produces a better quality green...I'm not convinced. I have watched many, many guys cut greens with walkers and some do a good job, others bounce the mower with every step thereby altering the height of cut significanly between steps. I leave the height of cut adjustments to my equipment manager and I believe that the quality of cut that I am getting is the equal of the quality that we cold achieve with walk mowers. The only difference is the width of the stripe. Shrinkage will still happen even with walk mowers on the cleanup lap.

Steve

[Donnie Beck]

If both machines are sharp there should be no difference in cut, but the walker will always produce a better putting surface. The weight of the triplex machine and operator is distributed on 3 wheels and the arms holding the reels float across the surface. If you look at a green cut with a triplex in the late evening with low light you will see the tire marks from the triplex. With the walker the weight of the machine is distributed across the rear roller creating a smoothing rolling effect. If both machine are set at the same height of cut on the bench at the shop the walker will always cut slightly lower in the field due to the weight of the machine compressing the thatch layer. Another benefit of the walker is it is less prone to scalping over contours and it does a much better job on the clean up pass. I have found that there isn't much of a labor difference between walking and riding. With 2 guys prepping before the mowers fixing ball marks, fixing trap rakes, exc. and 2 guy riding 5 acres of greens it takes about 3 hours to mow. Walking it takes 5 guys 2 1/2 hours to mow the same greens and clean up each green as they go. Another benefit of walking is you can break the greens into five 4 greens loops. By doing this I found the crewmembers take more pride in their work and are held accountable for their own green section. I have found it has created a healthy competition between crewmembers. Each day they talk about who cuts the straightest lines exc. To me there is no comparison. The walkers are a much better way to go.

[Donnie Beck]

David,

It is refreshing to hear of all the work you are doing at Fox Chapel. I am in no position to tell you how to run your club, but if you are serious about restoring what you have I think you need to consider the use of walking mowers. Raynor's greens always entend to the edge of the pad and in many cases extend over the edge. I don't see anyway of cutting a fully restored Raynor green with a triplex. There just isn't any room for the mower to turn.

[gookin]

Do you feel the same way with doing two or three outside passes with the walker and doing the rest of the green with the triplex?  I appreciate your willingness to share your opinion.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Donnie makes a great case for the walkers on greens and I would support all he said. I would add that another advantage of using walkiers on greens is you remove any risk of a hydrolic line leak on your green. Yes, there are new improved grades of hydrolic fluid available but the temperature alone asures of some damage being caused when a line blows.

[Donnie Beck]

David,

The problem with cutting the outter passes with a walker is the triplex's would still be turning on the green. It would not take long for friction of the tires turning on the green to destroy the turf.

[Dan Kelly]

From the Dept. of Crazy (?) Ideas, here's what we really need: a robotic, programmable "walking" mower (programmed to mow each green precisely to its proper measurements) that a grounds crew member could leave to do its work unattended as he moved forward with another such mower to the next green? Set that one up; double back to the previous green. Et cetera.

I suppose this would be tort lawyer's dream, though.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If any of you have access to the USGA Record for Nov/Dec of 2004, there is a big article regarding triplexing and walking greens...very good.

[Joe Hancock]

USGA Link:

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2004/nov_dec/walking.html

Joe

[Anthony_Nysse]

Joe-You're a stud-Thanks

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Dan - Not so crazy. The Toro company has a prototype mower that can do pretty much what you describe. They have a triplex mower that once the area to be mowed has been defined it can go ahead and cut the area with no operator on board. I guess down the road you'll have one central computer monitoring all the worker computer controlled mowers out on the course. Sorry to go off topic.