Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

PGA West has produced a wide variety of scores--65 to 79 among the leaders, not to mention a few scores in the 80's by those out of contention.  The majority of scores have been between 73 and 69--a good reflection on the course for players of this level.

[Jim Johnson]

It is interesting to consider that Tom Doak and Bill Coore are two designers who spent time working with Pete Dye.
When one thinks about the dirt that Pete has moved in his creations, and understanding that Doak and Coore are better known for their minimalist ways, one wonders how/why their styles evolved the way they did.
Was it perhaps similar in thought to what Pete himself has said in the past? That he looked at all of the other layouts being built in the sixties, and decided it was high time he tried something "a little different", a little bit "the other way", perhaps making him stand out from the others (didn't hurt him for business, anyway).
Have Tom and Bill looked at the business in the same way, and said "hey, I want to do things a little different, I want to go the other way"...
Obviously it comes down to a variety of factors....the site, the client, the objectives, etc. etc.
Just interesting to think about though.
JJ

[Tom_Doak]

Just for the record, here is a better accounting of the Pete Dye "family tree":

Worked with Pete:  Jack Nicklaus

Worked directly for Pete:

Perry Dye and P.B. Dye
myself
Bill Coore
Lee Schmidt
Brian Curley
Bobby Weed
Rod Whitman
Bill Newcomb
Tim Liddy
Scott Pool
Chris Lutzke
[apologies to others whom I have omitted in my rush to print this]

Worked for one of the above:

John Harbottle
Dan Proctor & Dave Axland & all the C & C boys
Gil Hanse
Mike DeVries
all of my current associates, particularly Jim Urbina and Eric Iverson and Don Placek who worked for the Dyes first; and
all of Nicklaus' many associates and former associates

It's a pretty good club to be in, and it encompasses about 80% of the people spoken highly of on Golf Club Atlas.

John K, I believe the principal reason Pete Dye is not thought of so highly here on Golf Club Atlas traces back to his "interview" with Ran, which he basically blew off.  If you knew the man, you would not be surprised.  Pete is a doer not a talker; he believes spending time in the field making decisions is way more important than sitting around with a piece of paper creating new strategies.  He thinks most people who are interested in golf architecture have little idea what it's really about, and he's a contrarian by nature, as any Tour pro could tell you.

Pete Dye is certainly one of the top five architects of all time.

The one thing which has always bothered me about Pete's style is exactly what someone pointed out above, that it is such a recognizable style, and that it made a lot of people think having a recognizable style was an important thing in golf architecture.  This created a problem for Pete later in his career, because clients came to him wanting a stereotype of his work instead of the original designs on which he prided himself.  I'm convinced, if he had to do it over again, Pete would avoid the railroad ties which became his signature; and that's one of the main things which led me to evolve a "style" which was based on the property and not on my past work.

[Tom_Doak]

JJ:  I believe I've been quoted in one or two recent articles as saying pretty much what you've speculated above.  Pete told me when I first worked for him at Long Cove, that it was while he was doing Harbour Town that he decided there were too many Trent Jones clones, and that he needed to do something different.  That conversation was never lost on me; and it also helped that before I'd worked for Pete, I'd seen enough of the great courses to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here is the Pete and Alice Dye "family tree" from the SI article, June 17, 2002  Vol. 96, No. 25.  The trees were compiled by Geoffrey Cornish.

Jack Nicklaus (1940- )
   Chris Cochran (1960- )
   David Heatwole (1961- )
   Bob Cupp (1939- )
      John Fought (1954- )
   Jack Nicklaus II (1961- )
   Tom Pearson (1949- )
   Jim Lipe (1946- )
   Rick Jacobson (1958- )
   Scott Miller (1956- )
Rod Whitman (1953 - )
Bobby Weed (1955- )
   Chris Gray (NA)
   Scot Sherman (1966- )
   Chris Monti (1974- )
Lee Schmidt (1947- )
John Harbottle (1958- )
Bill Coore (1945- )
   Dan Proctor (1952- )
   David Axland (1961- )
   Ben Crenshaw (1952- )
Tim Liddy (1953- )
Greg Norman (1955- )
David Pfaff (1939- )
Tom Doak (1961- )
   Bruce Hepner (NA)
   Gil Hanse (NA)
   Tom Meade (NA)
Roy Dye (1929-1994)
Perry Dye (1952- )
P.B. Dye (1955- )
Brian Curley (1959- )
William Newcomb (1940- )
   John Robinson (1947- )
   Stephen Kay (1951- )
Scott Pool (NA)
Jason McCoy (NA)

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

My worst error was in forgetting Jason McCoy, who's working for Greg Norman now.  Luckily, I apologized in advance.

That family tree is a bit misleading because the business is really more interconnected than that.  For example, Whitten didn't include Jay Morrish on the Nicklaus tree because he had worked for Trent Jones, George Fazio and Desmond Muirhead each for a bit before he hooked up with Jack.  Likewise, Rod Whitman worked for Bill Coore before AND after working for Pete Dye.

And the tree below me is way out of whack.  Tom Mead has never really pursued design on his own, but Geoff Cornish knew him from Crystal Downs, so he made the list, and Jim Urbina didn't.  [There is still some lingering jealousy about that mistake.]  And, obviously, there are about a half-dozen of my current associates who should be listed, as I'm sure there are for other architects as well ... my not being in the ASGCA has hurt my guys for similar recognition, although they are better known here than a few ASGCA members, and deservedly so.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim Urbina does deserve to be on that list.

Jim's story of when he first started working for Pete right out of college and he was doing a lot of really hard hand labor. He was worried what his Mom--who really urged him through his college education--was going to really get upset when she found out her son was digging bunkers and ditches.

Pete more or less heard him complain, so he put Jim on a bulldozer for the first time. He told him to move this huge pile of dirt from one area to another--didn't even tell him how to operate the bulldozer. When Jim finally finished, Pete told him to move the same exact pile he had moved, back to where he had moved it from!

And the rest you could say is Golf Architecture history!

[John_Cullum]

... I believe the principal reason Pete Dye is not thought of so highly here on Golf Club Atlas traces back to his "interview" with Ran...

That is a fascinating interview. I especially liked this part:

14. What in particular do you admire about Seth Raynor’s work?

Variety.

[Matt Kardash]

redanman,

Is that NJ course the one being built in the giant sandpit? From that one article I read, it struck me that if done right, the course could turn out real special. Are the expectations high?

[JakaB]

redanman,

In just your own private little world....would it be as much fun if it was really, really bad as if it was really, really good...How many times do you think you will play the place anyway..

[Jim Johnson]

JJ:  I believe I've been quoted in one or two recent articles as saying pretty much what you've speculated above.  Pete told me when I first worked for him at Long Cove, that it was while he was doing Harbour Town that he decided there were too many Trent Jones clones, and that he needed to do something different.  That conversation was never lost on me; and it also helped that before I'd worked for Pete, I'd seen enough of the great courses to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Tom D.
I remember reading an article years ago about Pete saying that about RTJ courses and clones. I think it was after one of his trips with Alice overseas.
Incidentally, what work did you do for Pete at Long Cove?
P.S. I'm the gentleman who corresponded with you a year or two ago (via email) regarding a possible project in Western Canada. You bounced Rod Whitman's name off me.
Still working on it.
JJ

[Tom_Doak]

JJ:  I was simply on the labor crew at Long Cove for the summer of 1981 ... it was my first job in the golf business.  I got to run a tractor a bit and shape one green with it.

redanman:  I actually spent a month at the Ogeechee project in January of 1984, when the front nine was being constructed.  (Mostly I was working on the initial plan for the Stadium Course at PGA West.)  A lot of the creativity there is the work of P.B. Dye ... P.B. with his dad overseeing made a great team.

We were told back then the project was for an Arab concrete baron, but I heard later that the money was part of the B.C.C.I. bank scandal in the mid-80's, so for a long time the project sat as an unplayed nine-holer.  I'm not sure exactly when Pete and P.B. went back to do the nine out in the rice paddy, but it was more than five years later.  I've never seen the finished product.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
I actually worked there for about 6 weeks that summer with Percy and Billy the Supt.
The owner was Gaith Farone from Sri Lanka....he bought the National Bank of Ga and had a company there called Interedec.  The Feds came down on him and he could not return to the country.
I remember later staking 100 ft grids in the rice patty before it was filled.  Remember the sailboat PB had there?

[Mark Brown]

Dye tends to polarize golfers and most of his courses are quite difficult and unmanageable for handicaps over 15.

But he and Alice are great down to earth people who really love the game to the point where they have desinged 5 or 6 courses for $1.00 at universitys and small towns. And his influence on the modern game post RTJ is immeasurable. He wasn't afraid to push the envelope, and now he has mellowed somewhat.

His course at Colleton River is a joy to play and virtually everyone loves Harbour Town and the Honors Course. His courses evoke an exhillarating emotional response that tells us there's something special coming, including a lot of surprises. Some of his courses in the mid 70s and '80s were too penal.

Courses of his that I like include Pete Dye GC where the front nine is just plain spectacular, Teeth of the Dog, Long Cove, Colleton River and the TPC at Sawgrass

[Gary_Nelson]

One of Dye's earliest designs was Radrick Farms in Ann Arbor Michigan.  The 8th hole is still one of my favorites in golf... a short par 4 with really shallow green.  I could play it over and over again.  No railroad ties though.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

... I believe the principal reason Pete Dye is not thought of so highly here on Golf Club Atlas traces back to his "interview" with Ran...

That is a fascinating interview. I especially liked this part:

14. What in particular do you admire about Seth Raynor’s work?

Variety.

The problem with that interview is that it wasn't an interview at all...  It was a questionaire.  From what Ran told me, he sent it to Pete and Pete wrote out the answers and sent it back.  As anybody who knows will tell you, he's a no-nonsense kind of guy, especially on paper.  I've offered to be the middleman on getting Pete on the phone for a real interview.  The only problem is is that Ran would then have to transcribe the conversation...

[Brent Hutto]

No railroad ties though.

Ah, minimalist!

[Sean_A]

Gary

I think the entire course is quite a good first effort (I think this may have been his first).  The 8th is a good hole.

Ciao

Sean

[Brent Hutto]

Do you think golfer's ego play a part in this?  Would moving up a set of tees for most of these golfers be out of the question?  

I think their ladies tees are generally great and good for seniors and shorties, but players won't play there.  Their courses are very interesting from the front tees.  I have often hit a 7 or 6 iron (150-180 yds) off some of thier front tee boxes (From a tee not to leave a divot  ) to see what the shot is and what it leaves and it's usually really good.  This is one reason I am a ral Dye fan.

I have no ego, at least not on a golf course. I'm ten days from my first round at the Ocean Course and I'm gonna be all over those 6,000-yard White tees. I'll report back on how the course plays from up there for a shorty.

[Dan Kelly]

I was simply on the labor crew at Long Cove for the summer of 1981 ... it was my first job in the golf business.  I got to run a tractor a bit and shape one green with it.

Tom --

I certainly hope you kept a Ted Baxteresque diary of the experience ("... and then Pete looked me in the eye and said: 'Shape this green, kid' ") -- lest some gca scholar come along, several generations from now, to insist that no kid on a tractor could've shaped a green like that one (whichever one it was)!

Dan

[Scott_Burroughs]

Another architect from the Dye Tree not mentioned is Ron Farris, based in South Dakota.  He designed the GC at Red Rock, highlighted here in the past my Matt Ward and myself and profiled glowingly in GD by Ron Whitten.  Shame on you Tom D for forgetting him from your Long Cove days!  

[Matt Vandelac]

Pete Dye continues to evolve and study golf course architecture.  Railroad ties, boxcars for bridges, island greens, are all examples of his ingeneous mind coming up with a better way.  For me, growing up playing in the Mpls. area during the construction craze of the past 30 years, it was disappointing to see the profound mark that inferior architecture has left on that area.  Having an opportunity to hire Bobby Weed for a project there enlightened me about the genius some current architects (and their staff)  posess.  My experience with him and his staff was great, and they created a marvelous golf course with little help from the site.  Still looking to put a better golf course on the map, I was able to witness Pete Dye as he built our golf course in northwest Wisconsin, called Big Fish Golf Club  (I'll send pictures soon).  Of course, Pete has many of the architectural attributes that are praised on this site.  But to put your finger on what defines a Pete Dye golf course in my mind would be very difficult.  Many of the built in variables such as routing (Among other things, Tim Liddy did a great job assisting with this.  He also helped keep development away from the golf course.), length/direction variety, and angles go unnoticed by the casual observer.  In my opinion, noone is more outspoken about the technology issue and puts more thought into defending the golf course from the long knocker.  Opening the golf course this summer, hardly a day passed when someone didn't come in and tell the staff about how they had just played the best round of their lives.  The first time they played!  We had no ranger or starter, and played in under 4 hours (t-times every 10 mins)!  The course record was tied once, at 69.  The only complaint we had all summer was when we kept carts on the paths the first month.  They are far away from play, on the left side, and frequenty on the uphill side.  We had far more riders up here than expected, but that's for another thread.  I think Pete Dye deserves a closer look and agree with Mike Vegis; someone needs to talk to him about his ideas.  He has alot to say.

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