[wsmorrison]

Thanks for starting this thread, Tom and thanks to Jamie and Tripp for their expert commentary on this course and tournament play.

Tripp, what can you say about scoring differential in general and on particular holes under typical wind conditions, shifting winds, and no wind?  As was stated, the course must play differently.  The mental side of the sport is brought out on a course like this, even on the short side today.  I find courses that test the physical and mental capabilities of golfers far more interesting than setups or designs that primarily test brute physical play.

Indian Creek must be a joy to play on a regular basis.  As all of us that have been here have mentioned, the angles are superb and understanding them and seeing past the visual miscues are important.  WIDTH allows the angles to come into play creating more interest and along with firm interesting greens make for a heck of a test of golf.  The photo that Scott posted shows the width and the routing really well.

The golf course and homes ringing the course make up the 300-acre island.  According to Joe Pantaleo, the course superintendent, of the 144 acres of the course, 60 acres are fairway and 84 acres rough.  That is a lot of fairway height, although not all of it is actually fairway.  Interestingly, the entire area by the clubhouse overlooking the course is kept at fairway height.  It looks terrific!

As Jamie and Tripp said, the clubhouse and locker rooms are fantastic examples of architecture and comfort.  It is the nicest locker room I have ever seen.

Tom spoke of the rugged look of the bunkering, a far more natural look than the manicured look we see today.  Believing Joe to be an outstanding superintendent, we discussed the former look of the course and the present practices.  He is following the wishes of the membership and the powers that be.  I'll post a before and after picture of the 12th as soon as I scan and resize.

[wsmorrison]

Here are 2 photos of the 12th at Indian Creek that shows the changes in maintenance practices.  Very little else has changed at Indian Creek.  There are some newer back tees but the Club wisely had markers made and placed at Flynn's tees and the club at times plays from the original yardage and with the original par of 70.  







The original yardage is below.  Like Merion, there is a great variety of long and short par 4s.  9 and 18 are both uphill very long par 4s in the early 1930s (and still today)

hole  yardage  par
1      353        4
2      409        4
3      549        5
4      358        4
5      186        3
6      445        4
7      356        4
8      206        3
9      470        4!
10    420        4
11    513        5
12    184        3
13    309        4
14    436        4
15    162        3
16    375        4
17    396        4
18    465        4
       6592      70

[Tripp_Davis]

Wayne,

If you get to #1 and it plays down wind, you are going to have all you want the rest of the way.  Starting with #1, playing this short second shot down wind is very difficult because the elevated green falls off quick on all sides and unless you have kept it down the left, you have to carry a bunker.  The next three holes then play in a left to right wind of sorts that makes playing a comfortable shot more difficult, especially on the short 4th.  Then you get a right to left wind on #5 to a green a cut shot works better on.  Then you get a 210 yard 8th into the wind and the 9th into the wind.  Worst is playing the 10th in a right to left wind.  On and on.  

If you are into the wind on #1, the course sets up much easier, for me at least.  The only real conflict is that #12, a tough par three, is then into the wind.

The sandy waste areas did predominate the golf course and have been replaced by St. Augustine grass (a bitch to play out of).  I think this was in response to the introduction of homes.  I am sure all of that exposed sand had a tendancy to drift and end up in the cupboards of millionaires homes.  Still, there are a good many bunkers that you can see were filled in that I think would make a good stand against the modern ball.  

[TEPaul]

"The sandy waste areas did predominate the golf course and have been replaced by St. Augustine grass (a bitch to play out of).  I think this was in response to the introduction of homes.  I am sure all of that exposed sand had a tendancy to drift and end up in the cupboards of millionaires homes."

Tripp:

Come on now! Perhaps that's what some real dumb clucks might think or have been told by those who just want true immaculate golf features and courses, particularly sand bunkering! If the club asked Mike Pantaleo to expose a bit more sand and roughen up the look of those bunkers and their edges I really doubt Mrs Floyd would've needed to worry about sand in her cupboards. Just look at those two photographs of #12 and the look of those bunkers compared to how they look now. I doubt any of the sand in and around those old bunkers would find its way into Mrs Floyd's cupboard.

They should probably use more of that St Augustine grass out and around the reestalished rugged bunkers and sand waste areas. That grass is something else. I grew up in Daytona Beach back in the 1940s and 1950s and that grass was something else. It definitely lent some strength and structure to the sand and soil----talk about some long stringers!

Matter of fact, I was such a weird kid I used to love to eat blades of that grass---very interesting taste and scent!   It also served another great purpose for weisenheimer kids like me back then. You could snap off one of those big broad leaves, put it between you thumbs, blow on it (like a reed) and you could make the sound of one of the best and loudest farts you ever heard!  

[PAW13]

Well boys it has been a long time since I have chimned in on anything but here goes.

Jamie, great playing this year, especially down at the Floyd Cup, have not played since '01 (actually with Guy) and prior to that with Paul LaNoce who has since teamed up with Ray Floyd Jr.  I understand that Rick Wolfe and Gibby shot a pretty sporty alternate shot round day 2 like 66?

In my mind there is nothing better than playing Indian Creek in the wind.  Tripp I find you wind theory interesting.  Having played with you at Charles River last year in the State Team Champ I know you have game (TP no need to think he is Kuene).  As I was reading your post I do not think that I have played the golf course with #1 being down wind.  All I can remember is the playing it into the a 30 mph wind and on number 2 Alan Fadel hitting Driver-Driver in the hole for an eagle two.  But that was before the latest round of technology.  I understand Rick Wolfe is killing it and had somehting like 6 iron into number 3 (par 5).  Was is playing downwind this year?

As for the golf holes and their set up, I love the par 3's and yes there is nothing like number 12 into the wind.  But the whole that really plays with your head into the wind is Number 13, short DL left with a elevated green, that is very difficult to get it up and down.

Jamie the Flynn Tees are fun to play and I understand something that Flynn added at a few of his courses (is this correct Wayne?)  I believe the orginal design at Rolling Green had for the golf course to alternate number 7 and 18 as par 4's to play the golf course at Par 70.

Hope I didn't bore you.  By the way TP, have I lost you as my number one fan?

Chet Walsh

[PAW13]

One other note, Paul LaNoce told me they are going to add some length to Indian Creek, did they talk about it at the event?

[wsmorrison]

Chet,

Glad to hear from you.  I hope you had a pleasant Thanksgiving.  Best wishes to you and your family.  

You are correct about Rolling Green alternating the par on the par 5s, but it was on 7, 17, and 18.  I'm not sure if they would take into account wind direction in determining par or it was something they did on a rotational basis.

For now, there is much debate over whether or not 18 should be a par 4 (my preference) while some think 7 should be a par 4.  If I were the benovolent dictator at RGGC, I'd like to see 18 as a ball-buster finisher par 4 (I never believed that a 5 felt like a par on 18), 17 have a lowered back tee on ground level to the left along the line of play.  This effectively increases the playing length with a sharper dogleg and the lower elevation.  It'll also be better with the larger bunker that will be constructed shortly.  I think 7 is a great par 4.5 and should play as a risk/reward par 5, especially with tree clearance along the left stream.  It seems they will be taking out the row of evergreens short right of the green (YES!) and they may put in the bunker I recommended short right in a natural roll (reminiscent of 5 at Merion).  This should bring the hole to its full potential.  What do you think, Chet?

Now, back to Indian Creek.  Why don't you join Tom Flynn and Mike French and play on Phila Country's 4-man team in the National Flynn Invitational in April?  PCC won the inaugural event at Glen View but got smacked at The Country Club in Pepper Pike.  It will be great fun and we'll have the course to ourselves (10 teams altogether).  Ron Forse (as you know, the restoration architect of PCC and Indian Creek) will be speaking at the dinner between rounds.

[JSlonis]

Hope I didn't bore you.  By the way TP, have I lost you as my number one fan?

"Chester",

Isn't everyone your #1 fan??

I did hear a few comments about the addition of some new tees.  There is significant space on a number holes to add some length if they wanted to.  The additional length would not hurt the design in any way.

Hope all is well.

[TEPaul]

"Hope I didn't bore you.  By the way TP, have I lost you as my number one fan?"

Uh, er, hmmmm...

Let me put it this way Chet, you should know I'll always love you but Slonis has got most of his car ahead of the hood of yours right now so next year you better get your motor moving and kick it up to high gear.

Jamie's played some great golf recently, obviously, with the finals in the CC and this 63 at IC. But as my Dad used to say about winning tournaments--"They can never take it away from you" and you've won the CC---and that says a lot.

However, you may've only been a "good contender" that year if for some odd reason I hadn't suddenly gotten "psychic"! Remember that? That may've been the only time in my life when I actually got up at 6am and went out and padded around in the dew as a spectator in the early am--but I wanted to be there the whole day because I already knew how it was gonna turn out  

For all you GOLFCLUBATLASERS out there who don't know Paul "Chet" Walsh (paw13), he's been playing golf since before he was even born for one thing! He's also slowly wending his way to becoming a Philly golf legend! Although he's been around a long time now he still seems like a kid to me---and he's definitely not stopped playing like one either.

First of all, Chet Walsh has probably won more better ball tournaments with different partners than anyone else in the history of golf and a whole lot of them have been some pretty interesting "Chet Walsh one ball" better ball wins too!

Secondly, Chet has always been on the cutting edge as a practitioner of "interesting and unusual strategies". Maybe he doesnt try to do it but he may lead the country in making birdies out of the woods and equally dark places like that. He seems to merge recovery imagination and execution as well as anyone I've ever seen with the exception of Ballesteros and Woods!

[JSlonis]

Tom,

You are 100% right!!

I've seen Chet make enough birdies & pars to last a lifetime, from places where mere mortals wouldn't even think about making a bogey.

Here's one of his recent best:

We were paired in the USGA Mid-Am qualifying round at Trenton CC this year.  On the 13th hole, par 3, 150 yds.  A neat little hole: the green sits back in the corner of the property.  It's cut on a small area just over a large creek, with the creek running in front and wrapping around the left side.  There is a large tree that guards the short right side about 15 yds from the green.  Chet has scrambled all day...well he hits what appears to be a pretty good tee shot that ends up catching the top left of the large tree...the ball then bounds down into the creek, bounces off a rock 30 feet up into the air and sideways onto the cart path...continues to bounce off the cart path and into the flower bed next to the 14th tee.  He then proceeds to take relief from the flower bed, but still has no real shot to the green.  It has to hit it over the shrubs, over the creek, through the branches of another tree just to get it on the green some 30-40 feet from the hole.  I'm standing on the green, just waiting for some typical "Chet stuff".  He hits a helluva shot just to get it on the green, about 35 feet away.  As he approached the green, I said confidently..."NICE PAR".  I knew he was making that 35 footer!!  He didn't disappoint...that par putt would have gone in a thimble...

[PAW13]

Boys this was not supposed to turn into a lovefest but thanks for the kind words.  

TP: glad to know you still love me and yes Jamie's car is ahead of mine as well as many others in the area. I guess new child at 39 does that to your game.  We will see if we can get it around in 2005 a little better than 04.

Jamie: 13 @ Trenton was one of my better ones! As we all know they don't ask how just how many!  

Wayne:  I have always felt 18 at RG would be a great par 4, by moving the tee to the left of 18 green, but was under the impression most of membership wanted to keep it a 5 par.  I also agree that 7 is a good risk reward shot, even if you get it down by the green in two it is no automatic up and down for 4.  Technology has made 17 too short and the tee you talk about would be perfect (it doesn't hurt that it would be a DL left for my hook either).

As for the Flynn Invitational, isn' t event always in the fall?  What are the dates.  I doubt I can do it but let me check.  April is still a little early for me to start traveling around playing.  That ususally begins in May.

[wsmorrison]

Chet,

The get together I referred to at Indian Creek is not the Flynn Cup held among the 9 Philly area Flynn courses involved.  This is a national invitational started by the members of Glen View outside of Chicago.  The participants include Indian Creek, The Country Club (Pepper Pike--not Brookline) Cherry Hills, Cascades, Glen View, Lehigh, CC Virginia, Phila Country, and Rolling Green.  Kittansett may be in for the next event, though not sure as yet.  We are playing the day after the club officially closes (mid-April, I think) and will have the course to ourselves for 2 days.  Just thought I'd plant the seed.  Plenty of time to let me/Tom Flynn know.

[PAW13]

Wayne, I know event is the National One, but I thought it was always around the same time as the Philly Flynn Event.  Any idea of the exact dates?

[wsmorrison]

Chet, the national invitational has been in September for the two events we've had so far.  Indian Creek thought it would be best to have the event on the first two days after the official close so we can have a bit more freedom.  I'll find out the exact date and let you know ASAP.  Thanks for your interest.

[mike_malone]

Chet, I think you mean #17 green.
   
Wayne,

  You seem confidant the evergreens are coming down on #7.Do you know something ?

[PAW13]

Mike you are correct.  Trying to type to quickly.

[wsmorrison]

"You seem confidant the evergreens are coming down on #7.
Do you know something ?"

I don't know anything for sure, especially when it comes to RGGC.  It is hard to believe they'll do the right thing, but a boy can dream.  Now the political winds have shifted with the new election and I don't know whether they'll blow fair or not.  However, my expectations are never high over there any more.  

[Craig Disher]

Wayne seems to have taken down MY photos  , so I'll repost them, plus a few more.

The view from the 2nd tee and mid-fairway:





3rd fairway



Approaching the 3rd green:





3rd green from immediate front:



4th hole:



5th hole:



6th tee:



7th tee:



7th approach:



8th hole:



9th hole:



10th hole:



11th tee:



11th approach:



12th hole:



13th tee:



13th approach:



14th hole:



14th approach:



15th hole:



16th fairway:



16th green:



17th tee:



18th tee:



18th approach:



The clubhouse:

[TEPaul]

Craig:

Flynn called those Indian Creek bunkers his "Florida Clean" look. 

[wsmorrison]

The clean look of the 12th today




The original look

[Jay Flemma]

cONGRATULATIONS Jamie,
That is great playing both at the Crump and at the Floyd.
I look forward to seeing you again someplae sometime next year.

Here here to BOTH Jamie AND Michael.  I had the great pleasure of watching them and eating with them at the Travis this year and I'll hopefully see them both next year at the travis and the anderson.

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