Would Pine Valley still be #1 if ....

[Paul_Turner]

Darren

Good luck forming your international panel!  It ain't exactly easy to see the great US courses, from a foreign country.  Unlike vice-versa!

Links is the best.  But from an architectural perspective I see no problem with PV at #1.  The course would clearly be more attractive with some open vistas, regardless of what Crump wanted.  Unless the course is simple seen as a monument to him.  First job should be to remove the deciduous trees, it is "Pine" Valley after all.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you think a rapid tree removal program would have been tantamount to an admission that they overplanted and let the invasive growth get away from them in the first place ?

With a sufficent budget, why wouldn't you do it as rapidly as possible ?

They proved that they could clear trees in a hurry when they created the new back tee on # 18.

[ian]

Brian,

I have been very fortunate to see a lot of great courses. Pine Valley came with rediculously high expectations above all the other I ever went to visit............and damned if it didn't exceed them. Something that well thought out will always get discovered and highly regarded.

The modern example is Friars Head. It may take time for golfers to find the right connections to see this wonderful gem, but it to will see its day.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I agree with, Ian.

Heading to Pine Valley my expectations were very, very high. As far as I was concerned, I was familiar with every hole through reading and photos. Amazingly, the course exceeded those expectations, ten-fold. Ten-fold.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Do you think a rapid tree removal program would have been tantamount to an admission that they overplanted and let the invasive growth get away from them in the first place?"

Pat:

I've tried often but I think it's pretty hard to put into words on here the way PVGC looks at things and does things down there with their golf course. Tantamount to an admission that they overplanted to who Pat? To GOLFCLUBATLAS.com? To architectural critics elsewhere? To who? I've tried to explain the way I think they look at things down there. They've had five presidents in their 92 year history and it seems to me they've never been in a big rush to do anything. The course is probably as evolutionary as any there is and it's been #1 in the world for a long time. I don't think they feel the need to rush into anything---to follow some sudden recommendation. And thank God for that. They must be doing something right all these years.

"With a sufficent budget, why wouldn't you do it as rapidly as possible?"

In my opinion, see above.

"They proved that they could clear trees in a hurry when they created the new back tee on #18."

That's a little different, don't you think? If they build a new tee they really don't want to ask their golfers to try to drive the ball off the tee through trees in the way!

I like the last two posts of Ian Andrews and Jeff Mingay---without question two of the most intelligent, informed and sensible golf architecture analysts I've ever seen on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. I think their impressions of the place on their first visit is very representative of PV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It proves that where there's a will, there's a way.

As to whom they have to prove or not prove something to, the answer is, to the golfing world.  Pine Valley is and holds a special place in American golf, and as such, despite trying to keep a low profile, there is a high degree of scrutiny focused upon anything they do.

I draw a distinction between seperation and isolation.

Let's just leave it that we have a disagreement of opinion, not in concept, but in degrees.

Don't ever forget that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, despite the best of intentions.

And, that noone is infallible, not even the folks at 08021.

[Joel_Stewart]

This thread has taken a slightly different direction in that would PV still be #1 or how dramatic would the top 100 list change if international panelists only voted.  I know 3 or 4 Golf Magazine panelists and I honestly believe they go out of their way to include international courses. Many of them are down in New Zealand as we speak playing with Tom Doak and then off to Australia.  Most have played Old Head, Kingsbarn and Doonbeg as examples of new courses in GB or Ireland and some make it and others don't.

As for PV being #1, the one time I met Colin Montgomerie we talked about Pine Valley and he was emphatic that PV was the best course in the world.  He played there in the Walker Cup and said nothing comes close.  I think most people feel PV is way above anything else.

[James Edwards]

TEPaul,

Yes, I think thats what I was trying to say, that in my only visit to the course in August 2002, I walked down the 1st hole and thought , ""hell, there are a lot of trees here, but fine, thats clearly meant to be"".... but then when I got to the turning point and saw this awesome green complex surrounded by trees overhanging its severe edges, I thought, ""thats just a management issue and it surely cant be the intention of the architect"".  If those particular trees were cut back, it would enhance the second shot dynamic because the golfer would see just sheer drops on either side!  Also from a playability issue, when the ball kicks off the edges, you cant get the ball back on the green as the trees overhang too much..

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Pine Valley would be a better course with the trees cut back, at least as far as the natural bunkering (some of which is now in the woods).  It would also be better with all of the trees cleared on the left side of number 12.  It would also be better with the alternate fairway on 17 restored.  Hell, I think it would be better if there wasn't a tree out there, but that's really not the point, or the question, is it?

The answer to the question is simple.  I've been fortunate to have played a lot of golf courses.  To say it exceed expectations is an understatement.  It's incredible, awesome, and excites the mind and senses like no other course on the planet that I'm familiar with.  The architecture of the holes is mind-bogglingly good, and the greens are the best I'm familiar with.  

I couldn't even begin to make a case of any course topping Pine Valley as the best course in the world.  

[JakaB]

The answer to the question is simple.  I've been fortunate to have played a lot of golf courses.  To say it exceed expectations is an understatement.  It's incredible, awesome, and excites the mind and senses like no other course on the planet that I'm familiar with.  The architecture of the holes is mind-bogglingly good, and the greens are the best I'm familiar with.  

Yea...and that explains why Friars Head is number 11 modern...and it has the views to boot..

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Friars Head is wonderful.  

It is still not Pine Valley.

[JakaB]

Mike,

Are you really going to tell me the same people that vote Friars Head number 11 modern...which translates to somewhere around 50th overall...would have the sense to see though the gobblety gook and vote Pine Valley number 1.....You guys aren't that good..

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Which of the other Top 10 Modern courses should Friar's Head replace, in your estimation?

You are also perpetuating a fallacy when you mentioned that it would be "50 overall".  In the Golfweek system, modern courses are compared to modern courses and classic to classic.  There is no cross-pollination, or some comprehensive meaning one can gain by comparing the two lists.  

[JakaB]

Mike,

If you look purely at the architecture....Bandon Dunes is no better than Barona...top 80 at best as a stretch...and you only asked for one course..

[JakaB]

You are also perpetuating a fallacy when you mentioned that it would be "50 overall".  In the Golfweek system, modern courses are compared to modern courses and classic to classic.  There is no cross-pollination, or some comprehensive meaning one can gain by comparing the two lists.  

That just flat pisses me off...so...for the sake of this argument...do you believe that the Golfweek panel would give Sand Hills the boot off the top of the Modern list for Pine Valley as it sits today.   I know Pine Valley is way better...but I don't think you guys can get past the trees and location/lack of views...

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

I'd agree with you that FH is better than Bandon, although I think Bandon is quite good and certainly deserving of a spot in the Top 30 modern.  

I've not played all of the top 10, but I think both Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are superior.  I think Friars Head is better than Whistling Straits, however, and I wouldn't argue with a rating in the top 5 modern courses although the other competition is fairly stiff.

1) Sand Hills
2) Pacific Dunes
3) Bandon Dunes
4) Whistling Straits
5) Pete Dye Golf Club
6) Shadow Creek
7) The Golf Club
Muirfield Village
9) Kinloch
10) Honors

p.s.
Just read your last post...

For the record, the "views" at Friars Head are really not all that great, except for perhaps the 15th tee.  Despite the proximity to the water, it really doesn't come into view elsewhere or play anywhere.

Also, there are a LOT of trees at Friars Head, and much of the back nine has the same type of "splendid isolation" that PV does.

[JakaB]

Mike,

Everybody knows that the party line out of courtesey to Kenny B...is to say on this site that Friars Head is top three but then vote it much higher.  I don't get it and would love to know the private votes that pushed Friars out of the top ten....behind that goat ranch Shadow Creek for Gods sake...at least Golf Digest has had the good sense to move Shadow back as the sun sets on its 15 minutes..

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I expected your usual response to my comments / re: tree removal at PV. You did the usual "turn around the argument back on the person making it" approach. Nothing new there.

Tom -- let's be clear the tree situation -- irrespective of the name "Pine" Valley has gotten way out of wack. The inherent qualities of the course don't need the invasive clutter that all the trees do cause.

Like I said -- the very fact that trees are being removed and have been removed (e.g. the 18th, to name one example) is admission that their very presence has only obscured what George Crump and the other collaborators originally intended.

Frankly, why would PV get any "free pass" on the tree issue when the same point has been raised on a number of other courses that are equally highly rated?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Everybody knows that the party line out of courtesey to Kenny B...is to say on this site that Friars Head is top three but then vote it much higher.  I don't get it and would love to know the private votes that pushed Friars out of the top ten....behind that goat ranch Shadow Creek for Gods sake...at least Golf Digest has had the good sense to move Shadow back as the sun sets on its 15 minutes..

John;

Perhaps I'm an idiot but I don't know any party line.  How could we vote it "much higher" than top 3?  Do you mean lower?

I haven't played Shadow Creek, unfortunately, but some good friends of mine are playing there soon and I'm interested to hear what they think.  

[JakaB]

It may not be a party line but it is polite conversation to tell Ken that Friars Head is top three Modern...why hurt your hosts feelings and say anything different cause you never know...you might see something different on your forth or fith visit...

[Mike_Cirba]

Well John...I've already said that I think at least two modern courses are better than Friars Head.  If I believed that number were 4, or 6, or 10, or even 100, I would say it to anyone who asked.

I don't think Ken Bakst would be too offended by someone's opinion presented in a critically reasoned way.  

[wsmorrison]

John K,

"Everybody knows that the party line out of courtesey to Kenny B...is to say on this site that Friars Head is top three but then vote it much higher."

Try to remember that it is possible that you do not know what everybody thinks.  Not everyone is as narrow minded nor as simplistic as your posts would have you seem.  It is heartening to know that a number of people I know consider your on-line persona different from your likeable in-person persona.

Matt,

"Tom -- let's be clear the tree situation -- irrespective of the name "Pine" Valley has gotten way out of wack. The inherent qualities of the course don't need the invasive clutter that all the trees do cause."

Would you please name some specific areas on the course where the tree encroachment has gotten out of hand--or wack?  If you're talking about the trees in general that segregate the holes, let's just say you are entitled to your opinion but that it differs from Crump's intent and the club's adherance to the intent.

In my mind there are trees that constict the playability of some holes.  I would begin with the left side of the 2nd fairway where most of the bunkers lining that side are overrun with pines.  The right side bunkering is exposed as it should be.  I guess there are one or 2 pine trees in the left side of HHA on 7 that could be removed and maybe a couple on the right side of the end of the second fairway.  The first formal trap on the right past the sandy waste off the tee on 9 is cluttered with trees.  I haven't seen the work done on this hole, I think some bunkers were added in the landing area, so maybe it has been resolved.  I think there could be some tree removal to open up the 10th greensite.  I admit I don't know the course well enough to know what can be done with trees between the green and 11 and 18 tees.  Some clearing could be beneficial around the bunkers right and short of 11 green.  Tom P has mentioned in the past the removal the trees on the left side of 12 that covers some bunkering.  On 15 I think it would be beneficial to cut back some of the trees around the bunkers short left of the green and the trees that are on the downslope from the green short right.

[JakaB]

I've not played all of the top 10, but I think both Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are superior.  

Mike,

This is what you said and it is exactly what I have heard a hundred time prior on this board....it was not a stretch and I think the limb you went out on is quite secure...kinda puts Friars Head number three in polite conversation...

[Mike_Cirba]

I've not played all of the top 10, but I think both Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are superior.  

Mike,

This is what you said and it is exactly what I have heard a hundred time prior on this board....it was not a stretch and I think the limb you went out on is quite secure...kinda puts Friars Head number three in polite conversation...

John;

I must not have been keeping up in recent months because I believed I was saying something that was original and genuine when I wrote it or I wouldn't have wasted everyone's time.  

I frankly haven't seen anyone else get into that type of specifics of where they'd rank FH.  As far as kissing butt for access, I think I've been very upfront in my opinions of Hidden Creek and others, often swimming against the popular tide.

I'd rather be respected than liked as a rater.

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

My point is a simple one -- you may have missed it. The tree issue for PV should be NO LESS a statement of concern than it is when applied to other courses. PV should not get a free pass simply because of reputation.

I don't doubt the architectural pedigree / greatness of PV but there are times when the Emperor may not have any clothes and therefore something needs to be said.

Wayne -- I'll give you one example -- the par-3 14th is simpy cluttered with trees. Heck, I think Tillie's rendition of that hole is better carried out with the 8th at Bethpage Black.