[BCrosby]

There aren't many driving stats pre 1980. I recently came across one.

In 1932 Craig Wood won the World's Fair Long Drive Contest at Chicago's Soldier Field with an average of 247 yards. Wood's best drive was 253.5 yards. He won $1,000.

Craig Wood had a reputation as one of the longest drivers on the Tour in the '30's and early '40's.

Let's have some fun with numbers.

A 6800 yard course in 1932 was considered long, but not uncommon.

Let's be conservative and say that the longest driver on Tour today averages 310. (I believe it's actually slightly longer than that.)

How long would a modern course have to be today to play as long as a 6800 yard course did in 1932 for Craig Wood?

Well,  X/6800 = 310/247. Solve for X.

Answer: 8534 yards.

Unless I messed up the math, that's how long a course would have to be today to play like a 6800 yard course in 1932.

Words escape me.

Bob

P.S. Craig Wood is one of the most under-appreciated players in the history of the game. He played brilliant golf for almost two full decades. He was supposed to have had a great swing. I don't think he play much after about 1940 because he got a highly lucarative job as a pro at a Palm Beach club.  

[Bill Gayne]

Bob,

I'm always amazed at how far the ball was hit in previous generations given the quality of the equipment. However, I think to apply the 25% increase in driver distance is leading to a false conclusion. I would guess that the increase in distance from other clubs gets proportionately smaller as the clubs get shorter. I have no data to back up my hypothesis but if we could find out the change in distance from each equivalent club it would give a more precise answer. My guess would be that a 6,800 yard course of yesteryear would probably need 7,500-7,700 yards today.

Bill

[A_Clay_Man]

There seems to be a few things wrong with this logic. Firstly Shivas nails it, but I suppose it was possible, if one end of the stadium was open, back then.
 The other, is the fact that balls on golf courses, especially those pre-irrigation systems, went almost as far as the boys hit'em today, just not the same aerial carry.

How about the 100k bet, back in the 20's, where the ball went a mile?  

[Andy Hughes]

Bob.
Interesting.
I wonder, though, if taking just that one winning drive is really representative of how long the longest drivers were then?

[BCrosby]

The Craig Wood thing is a direct quote from a contemporary news resport. I would think it safe to assume that the contest took place on the grounds at the World's Fair and not literally inside the football stadium.  Geeesh.

Bill-

I don't agree. There's no reason I can think of why the 25% extra distance isn't across the board. Woods, irons, everything. Something like that consistency in extra length across the whole bag applies in comparing distances over more recent decades. I suspect that consistency also obtains when you go back to 1932.

But heck, Bill. Let's say each of us is half wrong. That still means that courses today need to be about 8000 yards just to play like a 6800 yard course in 1932. The point is that modern 7600 yard courses are not long. To the contrary, for Tour players, they are very, very short.

Bob

[michael j fay]

If I am not mistaken Craig Wood was the only player other than Greg Norman to lose all four majors in a playoff.

[BCrosby]

Michael -

Yes, like Norman, Craig Wood seemed to be in contention in every major for nearly 15 years. He did win two or three majors. Also like Norman, Wood was handsome, well dressed and a terrrific player.

But there has been remarkably little written about him. Along with Billy Casper, one of the great players that no body ever talks about.

Bob

[Phil_the_Author]

In 1936, Jimmy Hines, another great forgotten player of that wonderful era, became the first person to reach the 7th hole of Bethpage Black in two. The hole was measured at 600 yards from the far back tees. He hit a driver and 3-iron and ended up in the rough over the green.

I don't care what equipment, balls used or era one is in, those are two mighty blows!

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,

It was not long after that he Craig Wood hit the longest drive in The Open.... 428 yards.

Bob

[Bill Gayne]

Bob,

I tried to do a little bit of research on Google to get some data to either support or refute my hypothesis that similar gains had not been seen in the shorter clubs as had been seen in the driver. The only data I could find leads to the exact opposite conclusion for the transition from hickory to today. Greater % advances in distances has come with the shorter clubs. For instance todays 9 irons for an amateur male carry 120 and with hickory about 70 or a 71% increase. In the day of hickory the average drive for an amateur was 200-215 and today it's probably around 250 which is a much smaller % increase.



Driver  200-215 Driving Iron 1 165-185
Brassie  180-200 Midiron 2 150-175
Spoon  165-190 Mid-mashie 3 125-150
OLD HICKORY GOLF
 Mashie iron 4 115-130
Mashie 5 100-120
Spade Mashie 6 80-100
Mashie Niblick 7 70-  90
Niblick 8/9 50-  75



http://www.oldhickorygolf.com/rules.html

Here are nominal distances for each of the common irons when struck with a full swing by a reasonably proficient 40-year-old male golfer of average height into still wind.



4-Iron 170     9-Iron 120
5-Iron 160   Pitching Wedge 105
6-Iron 150   Gap Wedge 90
7-Iron 140   Sand Wedge 70
8-Iron 130   Lob Wedge 40


http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm

[john_stiles]

Jimmie Thomson, noted long driver of his day, drove the ball to the edge of the green on the 298 yard, uphill, par 4 at Holston Hills, April 1928.  The fairways would have been very, very firm.

The distance in 1932,  on probably a level grassed field near Soldier,  doesn't seem out of reason.

What did seem interesting was the top prize of $1000 for a long drive competition in the depression era.  

I checked one website which indicated that $1,000 in 1932 is worth about $13,500 today.  I thought the amount was going to be much greater.

Anyway,  the nice 1932 article goes to show that distance has always been a goal and will always be a goal for players and manufacturers.  Why the USGA and others in the game do not address the impact on golf courses today and do something ....... leaves me speechless.

I think tournament length at our parkland courses will soon exceed 8000 yards.

[BCrosby]

John -

The Wood/World's Fair number sounds about right to me too.

If you look at Ross's drawings for Athens CC or Holston, very few landing area bunkers are out farther than 230 yards.

On the other hand, the ground at the Chicago lakeshore was probably pretty moisty, so I'm guessing Wood didn't get much roll.

Bill -

Interesting stuff. I don't know much about hickory clubs, but I had always heard that the change from hickory to steel was not because steel was longer, but because it didn't break.

It is very hard for golfers in 2004 to grasp just how long and hard a 6800 yard course was in 1932. It was staggeringly long. There are no modern comparables - at least if you try to hold equipment constant.

Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the north end of Soldier Field was always enclosed, as it was until renovation last year, and probably still is. If he stood at the south goal line, he may have hit it out into a then open field north of the stadium.....

[RSLivingston_III]

A couple of historical points....
The ball Woods was using was the new ball meeting the 1.68" 1.55oz requirements. It was later changed to 1.68" 1.62 oz., I believe 1934.
Previous to 1931 there were balls being played by the top players that were smaller than 1.62" and heavier than 1.74 oz. The difference between a 1.68" ball and a 1.62" at the same weight was 30 yards. I don't know what the distance differences there were from the weight changes. But assume they were substantial.
Read the Bobby Jones quotes in my interview for driving distances, pre-ball regulation, for carry and roll.

The quotes from Oldhickorygolf.com on distances are for his clubs using the gutty replica ball for Oakhurst and not for in-era distances. He uses that ball because it is very soft and reduces breakage. It goes a maximum of 225 off any club.

[JakaB]

Ralph,

I don't think the modern swing is given enough credit for how far hickories are being hit today...at Cuscowilla...Patches hit my magic spoon at least 220 on the fly with what I believe was a modern haskel or a Titleist balata at worst.   Playing alternate shot our groups best ball was one under....the boys were amazed..

[RSLivingston_III]

What differences do you see between swings from a top player of that era and today? Have you studied them or asked a noted golf instructor that has? Have you seen film of Vardon or Mac Smith? Do you realize distance is a function of club head speed given the ball and club are the same?
I guess I also need to do a ball performance timeline for you guys for the rubber ball from 1900-1940. The difference between the ball in 1932 and 1927 is as great as 2004 and 1954. The ball changed fairly significantly every decade (and half decade around 1930) and the golf courses and play need to be viewed with that understanding.

[JakaB]

Do you realize distance is a function of club head speed given the ball and club are the same?

 

That is so wrong it's silly....I saw a little ditty from that Nelson guy from Texas about the difference between a hickory swing and a modern swing...but I didn't understand it...I just know Walter Hagen doesn't swing like Ernie Els and a 115 mph swing speed does not equal a 115 mph swing speed....

[JohnV]

A couple of historical points....
The ball Woods was using was the new ball meeting the 1.68" 1.55oz requirements. It was later changed to 1.68" 1.62 oz., I believe 1934.
Previous to 1931 there were balls being played by the top players that were smaller than 1.62" and heavier than 1.74 oz. The difference between a 1.68" ball and a 1.62" at the same weight was 30 yards. I don't know what the distance differences there were from the weight changes. But assume they were substantial.

Read my article under In My Opinion on the Balloon ball for the history of ball sizes around that time.

Before 1921 there were no rules on the ball.
In 1921, the ball was standardized at a minimum of 1.62 inches and a max weight of 1.62 ounces.  That was the British ball until they re-united with the US in 1990.

On 1/1/1931 the USGA moved to a 1.68 diameter and 1.58 ounces (The floater or balloon ball).  Players hated it.  That experiment lasted until 1/1/1932 when they went to 1.68 diameter and 1.62 ounces which is the modern balls specifications.

Therefore, if he did this in 1932, he was using the modern sized ball unless he still had some of the old ones left over and for some reason decided to use them.

[RSLivingston_III]

What does Nelson know about the "hickory" swing? He was a steel shaft player. You might as well ask Palmer about hickory performance. Wrong era's. You need to go read Keller, Jones, Herd, Vardon, Ray.... anybody that is actually from the era. Stop perpetuating this second and third hand stories and old wives tales.

115 mph from Ernie or Hagen with the same club, ball and launch angle is going to produce the same distance. It's not silly, it's Physics.

[RSLivingston_III]

John V.
In the US they could still use any ball they wanted up to 1931. The ball ads I have from the 1920's list some Very heavy and Very small balls being available. That plus whaat Jones said about being able to go to the ball manufacturers and haveing them wound up tighter for even more distance. This winter I need to get those ball ads posted somewhere so the guys can reference them. We are talking US balls here, sorry being US centric on this discussion.

[ForkaB]

Rqalph

I'm sure Paul Turner or somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but when I learned physics force (a good proxy for distance) was a function of mass and acceleration, not speed.  I very much doubt if the old guys consistently produced as much force as the new guys.  How could they have with such primitive technology and less intensive training regimes?

[JohnV]

Ralph, you could probably buy them, but they wouldn't have been legal in USGA competitions or any competition played under the USGAs rules.  In 1922 the USGA experimented with a 1.7 inch ball with unlimited weight, but the basic "legal" ball was a 1.62/1.62 until the balloon.

[RSLivingston_III]

Rich,
Yes it is Mass x Acceleration (speed), with acceleration being the first choice for gaining distance. Increasing mass makes the club (drivers) too heavy for most players to maintain the "speed" which in combination yields more distance. The manufacturers have reduced the head mass and lengthened the shafts to greatly increase clubhead speed. But this is getting off topic.
The point I was trying to make was that this long drive contest was not representitive of the "hickory" era. The ball rules had changed for 1931 and I assumed they were using the USGA legalized lighter, larger ball (1.68"/1.55oz) which would have given a reduction of 30-60 yards from the pre-1930 balls (1.62"/1.62oz?). I wonder how quickly the 1.68"/1.62oz balls were put on the market in 1932?

John V,
Where can I see documentation of the USGA instituting the 1.62/1.62 ball for use in 1922? I looked in Chapman's book and Robert Harris', but neither mention's it. I do have a USGA rule book from 1925 buried somewhere (I have a majority of my reference materials stored temporarily) but can dig it out if you think they list the ball requirements in it. I am trying to get a book on clubs done first and then was going to try to tie the ball and architecture developments together between 1890 and 1930. The USGA ball rules, the R&A legalizing steel shafts in 1929, and the Depression all happening within a few years really did cause an end to the "golden era". I really like Harris' comments about the steel shafts dumbing down the game.

I found a couple of the ads. The Spalding ad has some interesting details. The two floaters, the Red Dot and the Glory Dimple, are both 1.71"/1.44oz. The hot ball appears to be the Domino Dimple at 1.685"/1.70oz or the English Midget at 1.655"/1.68oz. It is particularly interesting in that they mention the small balls do not run very well, but that the larger balls have greater roll. These balls all have a hardness rating and Spalding describes the hardest balls as being better for control on the short game and on short holes.
The 1928 MacGregor catalog only lists the balls as standard size/sinks or large size/floats. I assume from what you said it would be the 1.62" ball as standard.
I need to take a lesson from Tom Macwood and get my reference material organized like he does.
It appears I am wrong about the US allowing balls smaller and/or heavier than the 1.62/1.62 after 1922.
I stand corrected.
I also need to have Ran change the article for 1926 to reflect that the balls used are probably all 1.62/1.62.
R

[ForkaB]

Ralph (can I call you Rqalph?--sorry for the tyop.. )

Thanks for the reply.  "Speed" and acceleration are two different things.  Acceleration is the change in speed.  I think (and let's emphasize "think", as I am not a physicist and the  only one I know, my wife, is in Australia this week) this means that the effective force exerted on a golf ball depends on not how fast the club was going at impact (speed) but how fast it's speed was changing (acceleration--positively, one would hope) at the time of impact.

This implies that no two "115 MPH" swing speeds are the same, when it comes to creating force (i.e. distance).  A swing which maxes out on speed before it reaches the ball (think your average golfing gorilla) will be far less effective than one which is still increasing as you go though the ball.  Maybe this is what we mean by "timing."  Why whippets like Charles Howell can hit the ball farther than your average NFL linebacker.  Maybe also why to play with hickory (or any sort of reasonly whippy shaft) you need to "wait" for the club to get maximum effect (as the shaft whips the head through the ball the head is accelerating, no?).

Just some thoughts.......

[TEPaul]

Rich:

If a golf ball stays on the face of a golf club for a milisecond what does acceleration of the clubhead really have to do with distance? It seems logical to assume that at that point where the club contacts the ball and the ball leaves the clubface which is so short (transfer of energy) it's just clubhead speed as we've always heard.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()