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TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2004, 10:22:06 AM »
Tom MacW:

I’m responding to your post #48 and DavidM’s post #46 (too long to copy both into this one).

The point I’m trying to make here or to you is to try to look at some similarities in any form or style of actual building architecture and golf course architecture. The reason I’d like to do that is to see if there’re any common points of purpose or principle in either of those two art forms----and specifically any points of common purpose or principle when it comes to the roll of Nature or even the use of Nature’s “lines”, so to speak  (as well as how those “lines” are formed and altered and made into whatever they are by what Behr referred to as the “Law of Nature” which was basically how both wind and particularly water worked on the earth itself to make it what it is).

The reason I’m trying to do this is because you said in some other post that you felt an architect such as Raynor’s engineered architectural lines created an interesting CONTRASTING aesthetic with their site’s natural “lines”. I’m just trying to focus basically on the word “contrast”, it’s meaning and your use of it.

In my opinion, if one is trying to focus on what Behr, Mackenzie and some of the other so-called “naturalist” architects were trying to do to some maximum degree which apparently was to merge or meld what they made architecturally into the “lines” and formations of a raw site (Nature) to such an extent as to “hide man’s hand” then the idea of “contrasting” their man-made aesthetic with Nature’s would definitely not be the goal at all---quite the opposite, in fact. In a way, they were attempting, at least in theory, to remove “contrast” or the idea of it completely so as a golfer may not even know or notice where one ended and the other began! In other words, the aesthetic of “man’s hand” and the look and lines of Nature might become virtually identical, at least in a general sense of presentation to a golfer---or as far as the necessities of golf (tees, fairways, greens, and perhaps sand bunkering) would allow.

But to try to find some points of common purpose or principle in this type of relationship with Nature between building and golf course architecture does not seem to be easy. Almost all building architecture I’m aware of seems to have attempted to CONTRAST Man’s aesthetic (his engineered lines and his materials) with Nature’s. Again, this was not an attempt to meld them into virtually the look of one or both together as ONE!

In the first place, the purpose and function, utility, aesthetic, whatever, of building architecture of almost any type is so different from those same things (function, utility, aesthetic etc) in golf course architecture as to make one wonder if any points of common purpose or principle could possibly exist---and certainly when one considers the unique roll of Nature in golf! I see no similarities between this direction or expression of golf architecture and the motivations of Pugin and his ideas on corrupt religion evidenced by classical Greek or Roman  architecture and the need to return to Gothic or even Rushkin and his motivations to alleviate dehumanization of workers and the styles and cultures of a particular society in time due to mechanized industrialization of the era of the “Industrial Revolution”.

But perhaps, the best example of building architecture that may have some common points of purpose and principle with golf course architecture may be the building category alone of some of the A&C movement (perhaps a better example would be some of that rare Southwestern architecture that actually attempted to hide a building in a natural site sometimes almost underground!!

The closest I can find in some common purpose or principle of A&C building architecture as it pertained to Nature itself similar to the naturalist purpose and principles of those “ultra naturalist” golf architects such as Behr and Mackenzie seems to be this quote from your “Arts and Crafts Movement” piece in the “In My Opinion” section of this website;

“The Arts and Crafts movement rejected ‘style’ as an artificial imposition, its designs were distinguished by an 'insistence on modesty and simplicity . . . And on the inherent qualities of natural material simply worked.' The architect Phillip Webb, who designed William Morris’s home Red House, exemplified this new point of view. For Webb the land 'was not merely ‘nature’ . . . and art was not taste but the human spirit made visible.' He believed that the root of architecture was the land. Before designing a new building, he walked over the site until it 'relinquished its full possibilities,' and offered up 'particular suggestions.' That ability to weave nature and architecture together revived the quest for an organic architecture. The Arts and Crafts architects successfully 'recreated the past as a world of pre-industrial simplicity, ‘quaint’ and ‘old fashioned’, whose point of reference was the small manor house, farmhouse or cottage. Houses were no longer built to look new, but old, being irregular, distinct and tucked away into the folds of the landscape which they no longer sought to dominate.' “

In that quote, the architect Phillip Webb seems to go farther than any other in actually explaining that A&C building architecture can and should merge and meld into the lines of it’s specific site’s Nature. Obviously, I’m speaking more of the lines of the architecture of the buildings, not the A&C furniture or arts and crafts and so forth inside. In the building vein of A&C architecture, site specifics, asymmetry, randomness, natural building materials etc seem to be the goal (and the only similarity to “naturalist”golf architecture in this way, in my opinion).

So, I hope you see what I’m trying to get at here---it definitely isn’t the aesthetic of man-made golf architecture “contrasting” with its site’s natural lines---it’s the opposite—going as far as is possible to merge them into one to make where all of them begin and end seem almost imperceptible to a golfer.

I’m certainly not saying this is the direction all golf architecture in the future should go, maybe just a small slice of it. But it seems to be the direction that some of the “naturalists” like Behr and Mackenzie were dreaming might happen in the future when the technologies of the future made it more possible or efficient to do. Frankly, I do wonder what more they thought should ever happen that way than a CPC, for instance, but maybe they wanted to do away with any form of man-made stylizing of features and make it really look somehow like what was there previous to them.

I’m not thinking of these things just as an intellectual exercise either. I want to see what the possibilities may be of somehow taking this merging of man-made architecture even beyond the aesthetic of it and to try to see what can happen in this way with the ramifications of actual play and strategies too. You may not understand what I’m talking about there but I’ll try to explain that later.
 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 10:23:48 AM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2004, 10:35:01 AM »
TEPaul...I was wondering about this statment of yours...

"The Arts and Crafts architects successfully 'recreated the past as a world of pre-industrial simplicity, ‘quaint’ and ‘old fashioned.."

Just a point, wasn't the whole A&C movement post industrial....a response to pre-packaged...cookie cutter building?  I never considered it a "recreation" of the past. Rather it was running away from the past....Beaux Arts....Victorian...industrial sameness....

And there in hides the secret...to why it is appealing.
 

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2004, 11:16:55 AM »
wasn't the whole A&C movement post industrial....a response to pre-packaged...cookie cutter building?  I never considered it a "recreation" of the past. Rather it was running away from the past....Beaux Arts....Victorian...industrial sameness....
 

Craig,

True, it was turning away from those things, but A&C was returning to a more distant past - the Gothic or Medieval - which happened before all the stuff that came of the Industrial Revolution.

TEPaul,

The closest relationship between building architecture and Golf Course architecture may be best seen in the modernist architecture. Many Modern architects believed in leaving the natural 'setting' alone. They allowed the creation of man to exist 'naturally' within the earthly setting.

Consider Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water again. Here was a Modernist construction (the Prairie School) Square blocks of intersecting concrete - not "natural" in the obvious sense - not attempting to "hide" or camouflage itself in it's construction.

However, the asymmetrical, almost tumbling nature of the building, combined with its intimate use of the stream and it's use of the local wood and rock in aspects of it's construction make it "fit in". It contrasts by saying loud and clear - I AM MADE BY THE HAND OF MAN. Yet it shows a thoughtful consideration for the setting and becomes an integral part of it.

The most 'natural' forms created by some of today's leading architects may do just the same thing.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 11:18:04 AM by Adam_F_Collins »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2004, 11:18:56 AM »
Craig:

I think that refers to the past well before the Industrialization of the 19th century "Industrial Revolution" in Britain. Ask Tom MacWood about that as that statement you quoted is a quote I cut and pasted out of Part 2 of his five part article "The Arts and Crafts Movement" which is in the "In My Opinion" section of this website. If you haven't read that five part article, you should, it's one of the best ever put on this website.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2004, 11:20:54 AM »
... "The Arts and Crafts Movement" which is in the "In My Opinion" section of this website. If you haven't read that five part article, you should, it's one of the best ever put on this website.

Agreed.

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2004, 11:51:49 AM »
Adam Collins:

I agree with everything you say in post #52. However, even the Fallingwater architecture of F.L. Wright while it may sit very naturally in its otherwise raw and unaltered (by man) site and although it's asymmetry and perhaps use of local building material as well as its use of the stream running through it, still uses "lines" (primarily flat and straight) that are clearly man designed and man-made and in that way truly does say "LOOK at WHAT I (Man) MADE....."

This to me is NOT attempting to merge and meld seamlessly ALL the "lines"  man makes into the formations and "lines" of the site's Nature---not in practice, nor in philosophy, principle or even theory, it is in the final analysis still an expression of aesthetic "CONTRAST" and I believe in a building architecture context a very studied and purposeful "aesthetic contrast".

From all I know of those "Naturalist" golf architects such as Mackenzie and certainly Behr (at least in his writing and architctural theory and philosophy) apparently intended to go much farther than that in their golf architectural art and expression---presumably so far as to completely do away with any contrast at all, aesthetic of otherwise, between the man-made and the natural (with exception of what Behr referred to as "those necessary (unnatural) excpetions of golf'---tees, fairways, greens and sand bunkers in areas where sand did not naturally exist).
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 12:24:02 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2004, 01:02:11 PM »
TE
This quote by A&C historian Eizabeth Cumming touches on many of the similarites, 'Although practitioners had widely differing agendas, they shared the ideal of individual expression, of design that could draw inspiration from the past but would be no slavish imitation of historical models. Buildings were crafted of local materials and designed to fit into the landscape and reflect vernacular tradition.'

Although she obviously wasn’t considering golf architecture when she wrote it, I couldn’t express it any better….the similarities are remarkable. Other similarities utility (strategic interest), asymmetry, randomness, the importance of craftsmanship and the craftsman.

Pugin and Ruskin shared a similar philosophy with those first Heathland architects who rejected the formality of symmetrical Victorian golf design. Architects like Tom Dunn, Tom Morris and Willie Dunn had lost their way, and the Heathland architects looked toward the links model that evolved naturally by the sea…the ‘vernacular tradition’.

Just like the A&C Movement, which developed on different tracks based on location, golf architecture during this period appears to have developed on at least a couple of distinct tracks. I think what you refer to as ‘naturalist’ architecture might be more accurately called British architecture…developed by men like Colt, MacKenzie, Fowler, Simpson, Abercromby, Park, etc. Where as American architecture followed the lead of Macdonald and developed its own unique aesthetic or style (among other things).

Regarding contrast that is design or aesthetic choice not unique or common to the A&C Movement or any other art movement or architecture or painting or whatever art form. I'm not even certain that Macdonald, Raynor and the rest consiously considered the interesting aesthetic they were creatiing by contrasting the built with the natural.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 01:09:32 PM by Tom MacWood »

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2004, 01:09:51 PM »
TEPaul

I see what you're point and you're right. I guess I'm wondering if it can really go much further than what C&C, Doak, MacKenzie have already done.

Given those "necessary unnatural exceptions of golf" (Which are clearly man-made) combined with the public "necessity" for carefully groomed fairways and fast greens, is this level of minimal contrast as far as we can reasonably expect the architects to go?

Golf simply isn't natural (by this I mean that it is a construct of man). So how seamless can it get?

The minimalist architect attempts to blend the edges of the fairways into surrounding grass, they make every effort to disturb as little of the existing environment as possible. They use native plants and materials where they can. They even give curvilinear forms to their tees and greens, but these elements are always going to stand out as oddly perfect - and there's the contrast again.




TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2004, 07:28:57 PM »
"Given those "necessary unnatural exceptions of golf" (Which are clearly man-made) combined with the public "necessity" for carefully groomed fairways and fast greens, is this level of minimal contrast as far as we can reasonably expect the architects to go?"

Adam:

I don't know, of course, but I have a few ideas. We may've come as far as possible with maintenance, so to speak, meaning the most natural application of it but there may be some other ideas and applications with architecture itself. It'll take time to explain what I mean.

"Golf simply isn't natural (by this I mean that it is a construct of man). So how seamless can it get?"

Probably not much more than it did at it's best that way but I refer to my above answer.

"The minimalist architect attempts to blend the edges of the fairways into surrounding grass, they make every effort to disturb as little of the existing environment as possible. They use native plants and materials where they can. They even give curvilinear forms to their tees and greens, but these elements are always going to stand out as oddly perfect - and there's the contrast again."

I agree. I think the deal may not be much more doable in maintenance and "look", even at its very best. But there might be another way to look at this with architecture itself. I'll try to develop some of what I'm thinking later but before I do I know it will go very much against the grain of the way golf and golf architecture has become---and the perception of what's necessary today even amongst perhaps the very best so-called renaissance architects.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 06:03:04 AM by TEPaul »

Tripp_Davis

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2004, 10:37:46 PM »
Philosophically, a golf course or the process of creating that golf course can be thought of as natural or not.  If we preserve the existing contours of a previously untouched by man site, we have preserved the "natural" contours, but in the final analysis - after irrigation, drainage, drainage in bunkers and sand imported (and then raked on a daily basis), flat tee surfaces, USGA or like greens, turf grasses (and the mowing of them on a daily basis), fertilizers applied and the grass mowed some more - we have not preserved nature.  In the modern game of golf, there is not a site in the world where we could find it as it is and simply mark the teeing ground to start and cut a hole to finish - without introducing turf grasses, flat tees, and some shaping.  

To adopt the romantic notion of adapting nature to the playing fields of golf is a healthy beginning.  I think any golf course architect, to be true to the art, must have a very indepth knowledge of, and respect for, the natural order.  However, I suggest brillance is not possible until one embraces the understanding that they will be manipulating nature.  If you do not understand this and your mind is so set on the "preservation" of nature, the likely result is a golf course that is very beautiful to look at, but likely does not function strategically or agronimically.  

On any site, other than one that has a sand base that would work as bunker sand or greens seedbed, the golf course with bunkers or greens is going to have an un-natural element introduced.  If a bulldozer moves anything, an un-natural element is introduced.  In fact, on most every site today we can make it look like we just took a hoe and excavated the bunker, but in truth we did not.  Every golf course today is, at the least, going to be part introduced.  This is the playing field that we create.  A natural "looking" golf course is then going to transition from managed to unmanaged.  It is also likely that that part of the unmanaged was manipulated for drainage, slope management, or site lines.  To go really deep into the philosophy of the essence of nature in the creation of a golf course is methodology to understand nature more intimately, but to consider the creation of a golf course in a purely natural philosophy is simply a romantic undertaking - or an attempt to develop self justification - or worse of all a marketing tool.  

This all said, I think the golf architect should endeavor - no, accept nothing less than - to:  1.  Route the golf course in a manner that requires the least disturbance to the land in the development of interesting and varied strategic interest, and the development of proper conditons to maintain turf conditions that accentuate the strategic intent.  2.  Carry natural contours into those that are manipulated.  3.  Use materials that, as best as possible immidate the lack of order, or "contrast", that exist in nature.  4.  Accept that you are manipulating the earth, while committing to do so in the most responsible manner possible.  

I have found the most important thing to recognize is that a golf course is a series of transitions from what is, hopefully, natural to what is no longer natural - or managed.  If these transitions are as indistinguishable as possible, than you have succeeded.  This can still be accomplished with what many might consider man made features.  For instance, Seth Raynor created certain features that were, in among themselves, fairly symmetrical and artificial.  But they were set on the land in a way that, at their best, drifted into the landscape.

Now, the question then becomes, what nature are we talking about?  If you have a site where the contours are condusive to moving very little earth and give you plent of opportunity to use natural movement to tie in manipulated features, the question should be mute.  It is that nature.  If you have a flat site with very little movement in the earth, what nature do you work with?  You have two choices.  1.  Maintain the same approach and only manipulate as much as is necessary for simple strategic interest and proper agronomics - use that nature.  2.  Recreate another, more interesting nature that could be believed to exist there.  I have seen both approaches work.  Which is right?  I don't think there is a right or wrong, but I do know that if you consider, in your heart of hearts, that naturalism in golf architecture is a choice of style - you are terribly mistaken.  


DMoriarty

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2004, 11:10:49 PM »
TomM, perhaps you might be overplaying the connection between the Arts and Crafts movement and Gothic Art and Architecture?  

While Ruskin is certainly recognized as a Father of the AC movement, I am under the impression that Ruskin's dislike of everything from the beginning of the Renaissance forward was more of a starting point than a AC tenent to be followed.   Aside from Morris, didn't most Arts and Crafts practicioners reject Ruskin's preference for midievil times?  Weren't they more concerned with the contemporary industrialism and mechanization which was complicating their lives and detaching them from nature?  

Similarly, I am not so sure that utility plays as big a role in AC as you seem to indicate.  In your own work, don't you acknowledge that even Ruskin recognized that architecture should go beyond pure utility?  (See your Part II description of the 'Lamp of Sacrifice.')  In his efforts to bring the 'spiritual' back into art, didn't Ruskin go beyond pure utility?  Dont get me wrong, I agree that AC designs are utilitarian to a degree.   But I do object to considering utility to be one of the two fundamental tenants of the AC movement, at least as carried out by AC practicioners.  Regardless of Ruskin's views on utility, AC practicioners were by no means constrained by a strict sense of utility.  Non-utilitarian elements accent almost all AC architecture of which I am aware.   For example, take a look at the lobby of the Old Faithful Hotel, which hardly exemplifies a sense of utility:



I think your Cumming's quote more accurately hits on the AC movement as practiced.

But to try to find some points of common purpose or principle in this type of relationship with Nature between building and golf course architecture does not seem to be easy. Almost all building architecture I’m aware of seems to have attempted to CONTRAST Man’s aesthetic (his engineered lines and his materials) with Nature’s. Again, this was not an attempt to meld them into virtually the look of one or both together as ONE!

TomP, I think you are mistaken here.  It is my impression that the AC practicioners would have liked it if it seemed that their works were born from the earth itself.  Another Nat'l park example, Sperry Chalet in Glacier:



Quote
In the first place, the purpose and function, utility, aesthetic, whatever, of building architecture of almost any type is so different from those same things (function, utility, aesthetic etc) in golf course architecture as to make one wonder if any points of common purpose or principle could possibly exist---and certainly when one considers the unique roll of Nature in golf! I see no similarities between this direction or expression of golf architecture and the motivations of Pugin and his ideas on corrupt religion evidenced by classical Greek or Roman  architecture and the need to return to Gothic or even Rushkin and his motivations to alleviate dehumanization of workers and the styles and cultures of a particular society in time due to mechanized industrialization of the era of the “Industrial Revolution”.
But the AC practicioners were not followers of the extreme views of Pugin or even all of Ruskin for that matter.   So it is a big mistake to view the AC movement through these extreme ideas.   Put these guys in their proper context and a couple of important "points of common purpose or principle could possibly exist---and certainly when one considers the unique roll of Nature in golf" emerge:

1.  Return to Nature and the Natural.
2.  Rejection of industrialization and mechanization in favor of handcraftsmanship and the kind of detail and quality that only handcraftsmanship could produce.  

TomM said:
Quote
Just like the A&C Movement, which developed on different tracks based on location, golf architecture during this period appears to have developed on at least a couple of distinct tracks. I think what you refer to as ‘naturalist’ architecture might be more accurately called British architecture…developed by men like Colt, MacKenzie, Fowler, Simpson, Abercromby, Park, etc. Where as American architecture followed the lead of Macdonald and developed its own unique aesthetic or style (among other things).

TomM:  Not so sure I would seperate MacDonald out here.  No doubt he was looking backward rather than forward for his inspiration.  And rather than slavishly imititing his past models, he "designed to fit into the landscape."  Perhaps some of his less naturalized work was just his way of being architecturally honest:  Showing the beams and supports, if you will.  

Quote
Regarding contrast that is design or aesthetic choice not unique or common to the A&C Movement or any other art movement or architecture or painting or whatever art form. I'm not even certain that Macdonald, Raynor and the rest consiously considered the interesting aesthetic they were creatiing by contrasting the built with the natural.

In Spirit, MacDonald says he was continually striving to make the bunkers at NGLA look more natural.  

It was stated, . . . that the value of architecture depended on two distinct characters:--the one, the impression it receives from human power; the other, the image it bears of the natural creation.
      - John Ruskin, Seven Lamps of Architecture--The Lamp of Beauty

Apart from a desire to produce beautiful things, the leading passion of my leife has been and is hatred of modern civilization.
       - Wm. Morris, 1894.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 11:18:18 PM by DMoriarty »

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2004, 12:03:19 AM »
The question was specific to architecture...I don't believe I am overplaying the connection between Pugin, the Gothic and the Arts and Crafts Movement.

You may not like or agree with Pugin and Ruskin but there is little dispute they had an enormous impact. One of the reason's Pugin and Ruskin were so influencial was because they were both widely published.

What year was the Old Faithful Hotel built? Its a great building.

Pugin said '1st, that there should be no features about a building, which are not necessary for convenience, construction or propriety; 2nd, that all ornament should consist of the essential construction of the building.'

What about the Old Faithful's design runs contrary to these two principals?

I don't think utility and aesthetics are mutually exclusive. One of the reasons the Old Faithful is beautiful is because its structure is not hidden or decorated...its clearly visible and left in its natural state.

I agree with your description of Macdonald...showing the beams. It appears to me utility (strategy) was all important. IMO a slightly different track than the British which has more naturalistic flair.


DMoriarty

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2004, 03:30:53 AM »
The question was specific to architecture...
 I am not sure it is appropriate to make such distinctions when discussing the AC movement.

Quote
I don't believe I am overplaying the connection between Pugin, the Gothic and the Arts and Crafts Movement.

You may not like or agree with Pugin and Ruskin but there is little dispute they had an enormous impact. One of the reason's Pugin and Ruskin were so influencial was because they were both widely published.

I don't deny they had an enormous impact.  But I do contend that Pugin's main premise-- that midievil times represented the pinnacle of human acheivement and the ultimate blending of spirituality into architecture-- was not a guiding principle of the AC movement.  

Just look at the architecture.  There are definitely similarities (as you point out, showing the structure is one), but Gothic Revival is its own distinct style, and not easily confused with what the AC practicioners were producing.  



Quote
What year was the Old Faithful Hotel built? Its a great building.
1903-1904.

Quote
Pugin said '1st, that there should be no features about a building, which are not necessary for convenience, construction or propriety; 2nd, that all ornament should consist of the essential construction of the building.'

What about the Old Faithful's design runs contrary to these two principals?

Tom, I was refering to the first principle and not the second (your 'honesty.')  Second, if the "ornament" goes beyond pure utility, then these principles contradict each other.   Take the Old Faithful building, the structure is not hidden or decorated, yet  there is quite a bit about this structure which is not necessarily guided by utility in any meaningful sense.   For example, the atrium of the Yellowstone hotel is 7 stories high, with a 7 story fireplace!  What use does such an atruim serve, other than spiritual and aesthetic?  For that matter, what is the usefulness of building with logs (instead of boards)throughout the structure (including some floors.)  

To me the key is the "left in its natural state" part.  The architect set out to emulate nature, even if such choice wasnt necessarily the most useful from a structural standpoint.  

"I built in keeping with the place where it stands.  Nobody could improve upon that.  To be at discord with the landscape would be almost a crime. To try to improve upon it would be an impertinence."
     - Richard Reamer, designer of the Lodge (from Winter and Verticoff's Craftsman Style, pge. 182)
____________________

I am not so sure that MacDonald would agree with my description of MacDonald.

Could you please explain why you equate utility with strategy?  I don't see it.  
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 03:31:52 AM by DMoriarty »

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2004, 06:30:00 AM »




These area a couple of images of William Morris' Red House design by Webb...often sited as the first example of A&C architecture.

From Frampton and Futagawa's 'Modern Architecture 1851-1945':

"The Arts and Crafts, together with the English Free Style of architecture, has its origins in this joint work by Morris and Webb which took the format of William Butterfield's Gothic Revival vicarage and used its general character as the point of departure for the short-lived but influential Pre-Raphaelite domestic style...For Webb,...the Red House was merely the first of a series of houses in which he endeavoured to engender an authentic ahistorical style, through the direct expression of local materials and craftsmanship. Webb adopted the Gothic Revival syntax of Pugin and Butterfield, that is, clay tiling, corbelled brick work, rubbed brick arches and circular openings, as a way of articulating an open-ended form of vernacular expression."

Morris and Edward Burne-Jones met at Oxford and were inspired by its Gothic Architecture. They were also inspired by Ruskin's two books on Gothic Architecture 'The Seven Lamps of Architecture' and 'The Stones of Venice'. In fact if I'm not mistaken Ruskin taught Art at Oxford at some point.

Utility is primary. It goes back to what Ruskin said about Gothic "..they never suffered ideas of outside symmetries and consistencies to interfere with the real use and value of what they did . . . If they wanted a window, they opened one; a room, they added one; a buttress, they built one; utterly regardless of any established conventionalities of external appearance, knowing . . . that such daring interruptions of the formal plan would rather give additional interest to its symmetry than injure it."

That is why vernacular architecture is often so aesthetically pleasing...it just evolves naturally based on utility. And prehaps that is a reason why Raynor and Macdonald's architecture is aesthetically pleasing...it is bare bones strategy.

That doesn't mean the post and beams or the bannisters of the Old Faithful can not serve a neccessary purpose and be aesthetically pleasing, or that a Flying Buttress can not be made to look good. What is more basic than a fireplace? And the fireplace at the Old Faithful is just a pile of rocks...absolutely no ornament. It serves to heat those who gather around it and it serves as the vocal point of a very large building. I suspect, although I don't know this, that it serves a very important structural role as well.

"To me the key is the "left in its natural state" part.  The architect set out to emulate nature, even if such choice wasnt necessarily the most useful from a structural standpoint."

I agree it is key...especially considering its local. But that doesn't mean a Shingle Style home of Long Island is less A&C or a Prarie Style home in Chicago or Morris's Red House are less A&C. They all shared similar inspirations and philosophies. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 06:37:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2004, 07:00:23 AM »
With architecture you have blending of utility with aesthetics. With golf architecture you have a blending of strategic interest with aesthetics. The golfing merits of a golf course design is the design's primary purpose.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 08:49:43 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2004, 07:42:37 AM »
While the motivations and the evolution of A&C building architecture is interesting in and of itself, I do think real similarities of it to a truly natural looking golf course is pretty tenuous, at best. The reasons are just so obvious, at least to me.

The principles of building architecture as well as its overall purpose is simply too far removed from the principles and purpose of an attempt at golf architecture that's as natural looking as can be---at least that's glaringly so in my opinion.

I think it's necessary to go back to Adam Collin's initial post and particularly focus on paragraphs 2, 3 and 4. They're all extremely well written and evoke real fundamental questions here.

'Man's relationship to Nature'? This is in the context of the sport of golf, not in the context of the utility or even the spiritualness of using or even observing a house or a building. They’re so fundamentally different, at least to me, as to hardly allow comparison.

Tripp Davis says none of use should expect a golf course architect to somehow utilize a natural site (whatever it looks like) without doing anything to change it (without being unrealistic dreamers). Of course that's true and it always has been since the very beginning of golf architecture (which to me is nothing more than Man's manipulation of the earth for the purpose of playing the sport of golf).

Of course, golf architecture, most particularly extremely natural looking golf architecture is an illusion. What's the purpose of the illusion? Simply to make the golfer feel that what he’s looking at and playing on actually is the work of Nature and not man. That's all "hiding the hand of Man" in golf architecture is about. Of course the golfer will know that tees and close-cropped fairways and the slick putting surfaces of greens aren't something Mother Nature created but that's not the point at all--not in the slightest. Max Behr was very right in his essays on "Naturalism" in golf architecture to EXCEPT those things as the "necessities of the game of golf" that never was intended to appear as if Nature made them.

But the golf architect who is best able to create a hole or a whole course that creates the "illusion" for any golfer that all that was done by the architect there was to lay those "necessities of golf" very quietly on the ground for the golfer is the architect who creates the best "illusion". That's all that's necessary to do in truly natural looking golf architecture.

The best example I know of in that actual practice was Alister Mackenzie on the 9th hole of CPC. Thank God we have both before and immediately after photos of that hole. Analyze them very carefully and you will see that all he did there was build a level tee and then he simply laid the grass (fairway and green itself) down on EXACTLY what was there. He did not manipulate a thing there (he did build a bunker within the sandy waste area on the right but no one seems to know why!  ;) ).

That hole completely creates the "illusion" for any golfer, or should, that it's completely natural. The reason is obvious---because it is completely natural!!!

But that's not to say that Mackenzie didn't also create just as successful an "illusion" of complete naturalism on some of the other holes he actually did create with his man-made earth-works.

That's really all there is to this, in my opinion. A hole that really is completely as Nature made it, like the 9th at CPC, is so completely different in the context of this discussion on "The Natural" compared to even the best earth material A&C building made by the hand of Man as to just not be able to admit real comparison. The straight lines of the roof and so forth at the very least will never trick some observer into thinking that building was a creation of Nature herself.

The comparison of Natural building architecture such as the A&C movement and natural golf architecture can work to some extent, I suppose, but not to much of and extent, in my opinion. At least not unless someone is trying to claim that a level tee, the grass on a fairway or green is somehow completely similar in this context to the straight beams or the roofline of a house, for instance. But trying to force that comparison is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, in my book.

Raynor architecture, the actual structural part of it, is obvious in its man-made aspect. The structural part of Sand Hill’s man-made architecture is just not so obvious, in my opinion, probably because so much more of it is not man-made.

As well as Raynor architecture may play the fact is the structure of most of its man-made architecture does not fool the sophisticated golfer or golf analyst into thinking it's actually created by Nature but Sand Hills does do that. Raynor architecture shows the "contrast" of what's man-made with what's not. It contrasts the man-made aesthetic with the natural aesthetic (not that that's a bad thing, just a different thing!).

Sand Hills is a far better example of a true "illusion" of Nature, and that's the point---the point of this discussion, I think. Sand Hills does not "contrast" what's man-made with what's natural---it blends together almost totally those two creations---and no wonder--one half of it---the man-made aspect was extremely minimal!

But the point is what if the man-made aspect wasn't minimal at all? What if Coore and Crenshaw actually created the exact picture image of what's now there? That would also successfully complete the "illusion" that it was natural--"The Natural". And that's the point. How necessary all this (The Natural) really is to any golfer is not the point here. That’s an issue and subject for another time.

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2004, 08:30:05 AM »
TE
Just as Victorian tastes dominated all aspects of English life in the prior decades, so too did A&C sensibilities influence every day life in the late 18thC and early 19thC. From the desire to move out  of the city and into the country (creating a greater need for recreation) to just about every aspect of design including: architecture, garden  design,  furniture, painting, glass art, fixtures, rugs & tapestries, eating utensils, pottery, glassware, jewelry, and golf architecture. One need only compare the formulaic symmetrical golf course designs of the Victorian era to the first Heathland designs of Park, Fowler, Colt and Abercromby.  The Arts and Crafts style was not a physical look or an easily defined style…it was a state of mind and/or philosophy.

Another product of the A&C era was an appreciation of historic architecture...resulting in a preservation and conservation movement in response to  the damages of restoration....a conservation movement that is still alive today.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 08:48:01 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2004, 09:04:57 AM »
"The Arts and Crafts style was not a physical look or an easily defined style…it was a state of mind and/or philosophy."

Tom MacW:

That's an interesting and pretty good point but still in the context of this discussion we're trying to have about potential similarities and comparisions (or fundamental differences) of building architecture, or more specifically A&C building architecture, compared to the attempts (or even some of the products of golf architectural naturalism) at "naturlist" golf course architecture it's a point that can only work to an extent, in my opinion.

You should try to deal with the example I just gave you of the 9th hole at CPC as it compares to even the most naturally appearing A&C Movement building ever done! And if you do that I doubt even you could help but recognize the glaring fundamental differences. This doesn't mean there's a thing necessarily right or wrong with either, there're just some very fundamental reasons why they can never be completely similar. For starters their functions are vastly different.

Sure, the A&C Movement may have been a state of mind and or a philosophy (actually the two are one and the same! ;) ). But what we're trying to discuss here, or at least I am, is the actual---what they actuallly, physically are in an observable sense----what they actually look like in the context of the "lines" and formations of Nature itself.

If you can't see (actually observe with your eyes) the fundamental and significant differences in structure between the most naturally appearing A&C Movment building ever made and a golf hole such as CPC's #9, then all I can say is, God help both you and your eyes!  ;)

I truly do recognize your dedication to a certain philosophy (the A&C Movement) but the fact remains, Tom, you cannot successfully wrap anything and everything you want to neatly into it with any degree of observable accuracy! And, in my opinion, that includes some aspects of golf course architecture---most particularly its best attempts at the appearance of true structural "naturalism".

And lastly, the A&C movement may not have been particularly easily defined but it most certainly is a physical look, no matter how regional of varied it may be---because, I, for one, can observe it!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 09:08:42 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2004, 09:31:49 AM »
"Another product of the A&C era was an appreciation of historic architecture...resulting in a preservation and conservation movement in response to the damages of restoration....a conservation movement that is still alive today."

Tom MacW:

That's clearly the most revealing statement you've ever made on here as to why you're so adamant about the preservation and conserving of golf architecture despite the fact that golf architecture is supposed to serve perhaps what most would view as a higher or greater purpose----eg an arrangement on which the most interesting, challenging and enjoyable GOLF can be playedl  

Are you sure that the A&C Movement was a reaction to the 'damages of RESTORATION'? By that I mean the way many of the old towns and historic buildings of Britain were changed over the years as fashions and styles in building architecture evolved and cycled?

I've been to England numerous times in my life and almost every time we surely did observe those old buildings and the histories of their evolutions. The fact is restoration had nothing to do with it. I've read Country Life my entire life and the history of architecture with those old buildings shows massive alterations of their facades to the next popular style over and over again. That's not restoration at all it was the most obvious example of facade "redesign".

But in almost every case those large and significant buildings, particularly the most famous of the English country houses pretty much started out with a structure that was classical---eg Greek or Roman in origin.

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2004, 09:38:12 AM »
TE
If you are looking for physical similarities between Philip Webb’s Red House and MacKenzie’s 9th at CPC I think you may be missing the point. The Red House is to Gothic architecture as the 9th at CPC is to Prestwick, Machrahanish, Sandwich and Burnham & Berrow.

Those realtionships are the essence of the A&C philosophy.

A Dirk Van Erp lamp doesn't look like a Morris Chair which doesn't look like a Tiffany's stained glass window which doesn't look like a Greene & Greene house.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 09:47:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2004, 09:58:37 AM »
TE
Where have you been, I've been talking about William Morris's Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings (SPAB) for two or three years now....and how its origins can be traced back to the restoration movement that damaged so many important works.

Here is a link the SPAB website:

http://www.spab.org.uk/whatis.html

"...you are so adamant about the preservation and conserving of golf architecture despite the fact that golf architecture is supposed to serve perhaps what most would view as a higher or greater purpose----eg an arrangement on which the most interesting, challenging and enjoyable GOLF can be played."

They are not mutually exclusive goals.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 10:03:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2004, 11:00:53 AM »
"TE
If you are looking for physical similarities between Philip Webb’s Red House and MacKenzie’s 9th at CPC I think you may be missing the point."

Tom MacWood:

I'm never too sure what you're point is but that's very definitely my point exactly. That's precisely what I'm talking about here. If you happened to have missed it I was trying to analyze the strong comparison you seem to make between building architecture (perhaps A&C Movement) and golf course architecture (of perhaps some "naturalist" type).

I'm trying to see if there're similariities between the formations of Nature (which I've called its "lines") and the best examples of "A&C Movement" building architecture's "lines". There're some of course but the necessities of building architecture preclude this correlation going very far!

There most definitely are and can be some extreme similariities between the "lines" of Nature and the "lines" of the most naturalist golf architeture (Ex; #9 at CPC, which actually IS NOTHING much more than Nature's ACTUAL "lines"!!!

There're some similarities in philosophy and such between naturalist golf architecture and "A&C building architecture" perhaps but in actuality those structures (either "naturalist" golf architecture or A&C building architecture) are just too different in structure to estblish any real similarities between to the "lines" of Naure and its earth formations.

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2004, 11:08:46 AM »
"They are not mutually exclusive goals."

My very point exactly. And that's why I feel that careful consideration in restoration architecture in combination with the goal of keeping such things as the "design intents" of golf architecture current in view of the changes in I&B performance is not mutually exclusive.

One would assume from the things you say that they are mutually exclusive---that restoration should not even be attempted on certain courses due to the fear of damaging historic or classic architecture and its design intent.

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2004, 11:45:39 AM »
TE
A & C Houses “were no longer built to look new, but old, being irregular, distinct and tucked away into the folds of the landscape which they no longer sought to dominate.” That description is somewhat reminiscent of  Tom Simpson’s description of a successfully built sand hazard… “a rough, broken, uneven edge which give the effect of coastal erosion—a new bunker should have the appearance of antiquity.”

Other A&C commonalities: honest construction and simplicity of form, fitness for purpose, harmony between the man-made and environment, the revival of traditional craft techniques and the inherent qualities of natural materials.

But if you are looking for a house that looks like a sand dune, or vice versa, than yes, you are absolutley correct, there are no similarities….then again what are the physical similarities between a Greene and Greene home and a Gertrude Jeckyll garden or a William Grueby vase and a Gustav Stickley table?

I  take it you looked at the SPAB website and read how the conservation movement got started.

Certainly conservation of important designs and the “arrangement on which the most interesting, challenging and enjoyable GOLF can be played” are not mutually exclusive. And hypothetically restoration and interesting golf should not be mutually exclusive either…..but my concern are the redesigns to important courses that are done in the name of restoration…Aronomink, Engineers, Hollywood, Yale, etc.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 11:47:23 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2004, 05:17:12 PM »
William Morris' Red House design by Webb...often sited as the first example of A&C architecture.

Yes it is, but this is a rather simplistic citation, don't you think?  The Red House was built in 1859, some years before what is generally considered the AC movement.   Moreover, there is little if any indication that American practioners were influenced by Egan's work-- they probably were not even aware Egan existed.  (Winter, Craftsman Style)  The Red House may well be a better example of Morris' evolving tastes than an example of a structure from the Arts and Crafts Movement.  

Even your own citation from Frampton and Futagawa more appropriately places the Red house in the "Gothic Revivial" or "short-lived Pre-Raphealite" architectural style.  The latter makes sense, since at the time Morris was studying with Dante Gabriel Rossetti, and other pre-Raphaelites at the time.   I cant find where, but I believe that I read that the house was decorated as a homage to the midievil.  

My point is that it may be a mistake to take some of this early inspiration for the AC Movement as more doctrinal than inspirational.   To look at Pugin and Egan's Red House and conclude that all of the AC Movement was aspiring to recreate midievil times is like looking at Morris' politics and concluding that all true craftsman were active Socialists.  

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That is why vernacular architecture is often so aesthetically pleasing...it just evolves naturally based on utility.

This I think understates and misrepresents what is going on with at least some of AC architecture.   To say that the Old Faithful Lodge was architecture which just "evolved naturally based on utility" is stretching these terms to their breaking point, if you ask me.   For example, the "basic" fireplace consisting of "a pile of rocks" was over seven stories tall.  A seven foot tall "pile of rocks" in the middle of a seven foot atruim is ornamental in and of itself.  You correctly assume that the fireplace serves as a support for the entire atrium, but his begs the question of the utility of a seven foot atrium.    

You also correctly note that the fireplace serves as a "vocal [focal?] point of a very large building" but serving is a focal point is not really utilitarian in a structural sense.   This is precisely my point.   The logs, the rocks, the majestic ceiling, all these served to constantly remind the guest of his wild and beautiful surroundings.  Reamer was bringing the surrounds indoors.  

We may be speaking past each other regarding the word "utility."  If all you mean by utility is that the materials served some sort of a structural purpose (no matter how impractical and inefficient) in addition to their symbolic or artistic purposes, then I agree that the AC practicioners utilized their materials in this manner.   But often the symbolic, spiritual, and artistic was the motivator, not simple utility of use.  

Quote
I agree [emulating nature] is key...especially considering its local. But that doesn't mean a Shingle Style home of Long Island is less A&C or a Prarie Style home in Chicago or Morris's Red House are less A&C. They all shared similar inspirations and philosophies. 

 I never said otherwise.