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paul cowley

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2004, 09:58:21 AM »
men .....how about taking recognizable natural features and earth forms, blending them with the best that nature has bestowed on a given site while adding clearly man-made design elements to further create interest and challenge on these human play fields ?.......me thinks we over complicate things.

man made features, however natural they might or might not appear ,are the tool that creates the experience ,paints the canvas ..........personally i enjoy the challenge of deliberately incorporating hardscape elements as part of the strategy and 'natural' aesthetics [if nature does indeed include man ].

....but when one is ahead of the curb ,does one pause to educate or just let others catch up on thier own ? ;)....
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 10:25:58 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Craig Sweet

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2004, 10:08:04 AM »
Adam, to my mind a symetrical, clean edged bunker is no more phoney than a bunker that is plunked down and *made* to look "natural", but I certainly understand the jarring juxtaposition with anything remotely natural on the course.

Paul is right, some do tend to over complicate this.  I think even the most beginner course designer can recognize those natural features worthy of incorporating in the design and layout, but the trick is in the blending with the man made.  Some do a better job than others.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Rating: 1
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2004, 11:00:39 AM »
I want to make a long response here, saying......wait a minute, I've got to loosen my belt buckle after the "feast" yesterday.....

Okay, now I'm ready!

Tom MacWood,

I believe farmers manipulate the landscape considerably. And I am not speaking of replacing natural trees/prairie cover with corn and oats. (wasn't that a quirky rock band in the 70's?)

They grade the land considerably.  In fact, I think it was a Buckeye named Ketchel Karch who pioneered a system of grading to specific inlets to control drainage and especially sediment control.  While they do, as golf course architects do, follow the natural contours as much as possible because its easier, they do engineer their fields for drainage, and in the west, irrigation!

For that matter, those romantic english landscapes were also highly engineered and designed.  I haven't been in an LA history class for years, but I believe the English Shcool also thought they would emulate nature, but could "improve" it, by placing plant clumpings in specific locations to create views and intriuge (an open space that dissapears around a corner always begs us to go see what is on the other side, etc)

In fact, many say our whole concept of suburbia is based, perhaps too much on this idealized English landscape, which may translate to similar climates of Ohio, but is out of place in say, Pheonix.

While this thread in some ways splits semantic hairs - as most architects do follow the land to a great degree, at perhaps a 10:1 ratio to the Shadow Creek type courses, I still maintain that some here possess an overly romantic/nostagic view of what happened in the past.  

In TEPaul's case, even an exaggerated view of exactly what Behr meant with his poetic ramblings.  What would happen if Max was building Colbert Hills No 5, shown above, and found it necessary to place that green on what was a 30% cross slope, as I did?  

I wouldn't be surprised to see him level that green site, since I know of nothing he wrote suggesting that a 30% slope on a putting green was acceptable, even when green speeds were 4.5.  Then, he might find that the most natural solution would be to build a skinny green, across the line of play, despite the 210 yard length, perhaps adding some depth on one area for play, thus creating an "r" shaped green, like the one above.

I doubt his first inclination would be to build a paw bunker, but then again, neither was mine, and it would be interesting to see how Max would have reacted to the suggestions of some rabid KSU Wildcat fans!

So, here is the point after my rant -

On this green site, any architect would alter the grade, change the grasses from native to playable, and (now, at least) install sand for greens mix, and sand from bunkers from well over 100 miles away to create a turf medium and playable bunkers.  

So, as Adam suggests from his study of gardens, we are creating a functional golf garden, doing what is necessary while trying to leave some of and then emulate nature. (Whimsical Cat Paw excepted!)  

I agree with DMoriarty that it is a matter of degrees.  Could I have kept more Konza Prairie, especially on a par 3? Yes, but the last time I was there, I noticed that Dave Gourlay was mowing far less turf, including on this hole. We provided fescues on the outer edges to give him the flexibility to mow in as far as he dares without unnecessarily slowing play.  BTW, he also prides himself on only water once every 4 days.  

Could I have moved less earth?  No, I hated to move that much, since its solid rock under there. Could I have avoided irrigation, draining the greens and bunkers, etc? I doubt it.

So, we are down to style questions. Did I need a cat paw bunker?  (Yes, the locals love it)  Does that design/mowing style of bunkers suit your taste?  Perhaps you would have more ragged edges, and that would be a great look, although it wouldn't appeal to everyone.  Do you like the green shape?  Naturally, some serious golfers object, on the 1% chance that they may have to putt around a corner (although the backslope can be effectively used)

We can go on dissecting the design.  As it happens, its about my least favorite hole on the course, so I may not disagree.

But, does arguing about bunker edges, amount of mowed turf, or the slopes here and there, etc. make this hole any less "natural" than what Max Behr may have done stylistically after all his great writing?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Craig Sweet

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2004, 12:26:47 PM »
I believe the english school of gardening was a direct response to the even more formal and contrived gardens of France.

However, the English created artifical grades and dug ponds where no ponds existed, and scattered trees about in a rather asymetrical manner and called it "natural".

Hmmm...not unlike todays golf architech.


Lynn_Shackelford

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2004, 12:47:35 PM »
Interesting topic to which there will always be different opinions.  This topic for reminds me of Central Park.

Horace Greely "Well they have let alone better than I thought they would."  Greely was entirely wrong.

Central Park in the 1850s was America's greatest example of the marriage of aesthetics and engineering.  In this, it has always been a glorious paradox:  above ground it is a designed landscape that copies nature so closely that it disguises its own fabrication and, below ground, it is an efficient technological system.

This is called "taming the land."
Today we try to "control the land."  This goes with Max Behr's quote about Americans pursuing the activity of trying to control or overtake nature.....carts, GPS, graphite, perfectly raked bunkers, etc.
Frederick Law Olmstead was America's first "earthwork artist."  I say we should strive for earthwork art, this is what I would call natural.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2004, 01:33:04 PM »
Jeff
When farmers manipulate the land are they effected by aesthetic considerations?

Craig
Interesting observation. The English garden artists have been a major influence on LArch aethetics, which has had a major influence on contemporary golf architecture.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2004, 02:29:34 PM »
Jeff,
Bunkers have nothing to do with it. I merely showed this example as evidence of the nautral vs. un-natural discussion. So lets make one thing perfect clear--YOU brought rough and ragged bunkering into it. I didn't.

Also, I'm sure the Konsa Prarie people do in fact love their course and especially this hole, plus the uniqueness of having an archtiect build them a Wildcat paw in the middle of their prarie--but the point is, "The Natural."

Is this Wildcat paw natural or does its feel exude that as something would randomly come across while walking around nature?

This is why Sand Hills works--its somewhat natural for a prarie landscape wouldn't you think? (you tell me, because I have only seen pictures of the course) Why on earth didn't Coore & Crenshaw build a Dick Youngscape bunker there that looked like the shape of his face or something? Is it because the Konsa Prarie people have something over the Mullen Prarie people?

Or is it simply because a Wildcat paw was being used as a gimmick--a conversational piece for which they could identify? If so, is that then really NATURAL in terms of what we are discussing? Couldn't this Paw be construed as what my dear late friend, Desmond Muirhead called, Symbolism? (I never have been a fan of it in golf architecture, but more of a fan of the man himself. A great and enjoyable friend, and we would have conversations regarding the Nautral vs. the Symbolistic on many occasions. Many of them INTENSE conversations.)

How about shaping?

We don't seem to talk much here about the naturalness of shaping. This too should include shaping that is in turn used for surface drainage and how it fits into the landscape. If you read The Architectural Side of Golf you see how its described as a important part of the visual of being natural--it eliminates the shaped or formed areas from looking as such. Yet, in todays world, everytime I come up to a man-made shaped bowl for a greensite, I want to regurgitate my Cheerios, knowing that its just the way TOO MANY modern day architects do things. It to is un-natural, therfore, WRONG in my terms of GREAT golf.

Craig Sweet

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2004, 10:01:49 AM »
Gee, I wonder if we should add the role played by the aristocracy in the evolution of LArch and golf course design in Europe and America?

It seems to me that these wealthy people consider, by virtue of their wealth (and ego's), that nature was their's to be tamed or controled much like the working class was their's to exploit.

Fortunately, Olmstead considered Central Park,and the other large spaces he designed, "public spaces" and a refuge for people shut in factories and office buildings all day. Not unlike the local public golf course.








Jeff_Brauer

  • Rating: 1
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2004, 12:45:49 PM »
Tommy,

This course is built in the Flint Hills, not the Sand Hills.  The simple fact is, that C and C HAD an opportunity to carve out natural sand bunkers simply by clearing out a little native grass.  I did not.  The cat paw, or any other bunker out there had exactly 0% chance of being seen randomly in nature at Colbert Hills!

Even a great many sandy sites, from Pinehurst to Royal Melbourne have built bunkers, and not particularly to any rugged standard, but to more a stylized form that is highly attractive.  For that matter, even at a site like Pac Dunes, Tom Doak BUILT reasonalby normally shaped flash bunkers.  Purely natural would have meant just leaving the dunes in place.  Why cut more formal hazards?  I think its because we generally accept that we must have them!

Thus, the point of this discussion, as I understand Adam's original post, is why fantasize precisely the way you are that you MIGHT have seen any particular type of bunker?  Bunkers are remnants of early seaside courses, meant to somewhat emulate that experience, but architects over time realize, to quote Tillie (I think) that the puny strivings of man don't compare with nature. In other words, why try to emulate massive dunes, because chances are you can't.  

Instead, architects have used bunkers as stylized reminders of those early days, accepting that they are artificial imitations.  From there, we try to make them as attractive as possible, since its clear that they do have aesthetic value on golf courses as well.

They also have emotional value to golfers.  So, a Cat's Paw bunker could be considered a proper symbolic gesture, especially in Manhattan, KS.  You were not my primary audience when designing that!  I may be wrong, but since you are a MacKenzie, Bell, and Thomas fan, I suspect you don't argue about the aesthetics of their flash bunkers at all. Yet, any modern bunker seems to draw your ire.  I tend to agree with the post that said that we are looking for something that looks aged, not natural.  Golf courses are one of the few artistic endeavors that look better with age, not worse.

Your point about shaping is well taken, as in the 80-90"s, many of us overshaped everything.  The point of the shaping was not to emulate the natural, but to see how far we could push the envelope, to make modern courses look different than their predessors.  Nothing wrong with that, really.  For most people, the new is exciting.  Re-doing old things isn't.  I know your opinion might vary.

There are also technical things to consider.  As a Southern Californian, you may be biased against shaping for drainage.  There, with limited rainfall, surface drainage probably works just fine.  Here in Texas, or at Colbert Hills, where rock underlays the soil, and I had to grade certain areas.  

The site was hilly in many areas, and the golf course in valleys that would in about 20 years be surrounded by houses, which would increase drainage even further.  Many fairways had side slopes exceeding 15% when we started. We had to get those under 10% or the balls would roll off the fairways.  I knew we would be sodding Zoysia, which requires about 5% minimum slope for proper drainage, so grading got the fairways between these grades.

Simply put, the grading and drainage of that site was custom tailored to the practical problems I knew were there.  I stuck with the basic general drainage pattern, but altered it to keep water flow where it would do the least damage to the course.  In some cases, this does lead to artifial bowls, and inlets in the fairways, etc.  But, that was necessary, and to do less wasn't an option.

I know I could talk all day about this, and your mind would be made up that surface drainage is the "most natural" and no other way would work.  However, I am just trying to show a perspective of why we do things certain ways now.

Now, if you are simply talking about the modern style of building greens, and more specifically, building greens surrounds of mounds, ridges, etc. I understand your point.  IF you prefer a certain style, you are entitled to that opinion, and entitled only to play golf courses that are designed to your liking, as are we all.  For that matter, all our courses probably do look too much a like than too much different, owing to both design conventions and construction standards, using contractors who transfer ideas from architect to architect, sometimes unknowingly, just by assigning certain shapers, etc.  

One reason C and C and Doak created a certain appeal is that their stuff WAS new and different, at least to the golfers eye.  Ditto Pete Dye and even RTJ in the 50's.  In earlier  cases, golfers began to recognize repetition and it stuck out when someone came along with a "new" look, even if it was borrowed from Scotland, the Golden Age, or in Muirhead's case, God knows what.  But, he carved a niche.

That Muirheads style never caught on as more than a gimmick, is, I suppose, testament that golfers do like the emulation of nature.  However, the way they flocked to spectacular courses and paid high prices to do so also may say that the more natural style isn't necessarily the thing that sells them.  I think we all enjoy getting out to "nature", but wouldn't for example, want to worry about snakes, so we don't want it too natural.  I think most want an "improved landscape' crafted for a very specific use, like golf, and cleaned up and organized so they can intuitively understand it.

I am not a shrink, but from English Gardens to Central Park, to golf courses, which probably follow park design in reality, I think this has been the primary design theory, over an emphasis on "the natural."

As you can tell, I like the debate over some of these "Big Picture" topics.  I also appreciate Tom MacWoods posting some of the old architects drawings.  So, Tommy, I hope you know I have zero problems with your posts.  I just like to bat the ideas back and forth.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2004, 01:53:26 PM »
Jeff, in my view, the above was one of the most instructive and valuable posts I've read here.  It completely puts us inside your head (and it wasn't as scary as I may have thought) ;) ;D  

Really, you help us realise that ideals more often than not are fleeting pursuits, and compromise with the natural environment, the commercial interest that hired you, and the practicality of what will work trumps the ideal everytime.  And for the record, while I haven't seen Colbert Hills yet, I have no issue whatsoever with the wildcat foot print nor the Giants Ridge one.  The fact that they appear to be in a strategic place is the issue, IMHO.  My own taste would be to be slightly less repetative in greens framed by mounding pieces greensites.  But, even you I think made a reference to that as being possible to overdo.

So which hockey team are you getting your jollies following lately? :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2004, 06:39:35 PM »
Tom MacWood said:

"3. Clearly artificial or engineered features contrasted with outstanding natural features creates a very interesting aesthetic.

The common denominator with all three is the importance of Nature. The less you fool with an interesting natural site (and the more you utilize the interesting natural features) the more interesting the finished product will be. The desire create hyper natural golf courses is a problem IMO, and might be attributed to the study of LArch. Did RTJ get this trend strarted?"

Tom MacW:

I believe after a lot of time on here I understand how you feel about those subjects quoted above. "Naturally" ;) I disagree with you to some extent on some of them.

I guess I'd say I believe that clearly artifical or engineered features contrasted with outstanding natural features generally only creates an "aesthetic clash" or "visual dissonance"! I say this despite the fact I've become more used to the engineered look of an architect such as Raynor but also I've definitely come to appreciate better just how well that architecture, at its best, can play. But how it actually looks as an attractive aesthetic is another matter to me.

It's a juxtaposition, I think, originally was used only to satisfy the necessities of golf (tees, greens, fairways and sometimes that odd vestige of architecture, the sand bunker where it didn't naturally belong) before architecture and architects advanced to a point when and where they became more proficient and artistic in hiding these engineered looking and artificial looking things! The engineered and clearly artificial look juxtaposed to raw natural lines was indicative of a time of rudimentariness in an aesthetic sense, in my opinion.

It's hard to know what you mean by 'hyper-natural'. If you mean an exaggeration, I agree with you. I think that "art principles" probably in the form of landscape architecture of the stylized kind most of us know is an exaggeration or at the very least an “idealization” of actual raw Nature.

I guess what I'd like to see more of, or a push towards, would be "Ultra Natural" golf architecture where greater attempts to blend man-made architecture into Nature's own would appear even more seamless than it ever has before.

Certainly that might be hard to do for obvious reasons but I think that's precisely what some of the greatest "naturalist" architects of the so called "Golden Age" were hoping for and dreaming of when technologies may have allowed them to do it better.

I very much agree with your idea expressed in your excellent “Arts and Crafts Movement” series of including the less “idealized” aspects of Nature into golf architecture is certainly a step in the right direction in the future. And, personally, at least, I’d prefer to see some architects get completely away from the concept and principle of “framing” in golf architecture. I think that’s an aspect of “art principles” and some landscape architecture practitioners that taken the art of golf architecture too far down a single concept road---eg to show or lead the golfer down a somewhat obvious road with well known keys and little trip or journey signs.

I may be the only one I know of to feel this way but I believe some architect should actually try to do the opposite of lead a golfer’s eye to what’s important. I’m a believer in letting a golfer really look around and figure out on his own what might be important and even to construct in such a way that what’s important might not be at all clear and certainly not obvious. That’s why I think Mackenzie was so fascinating with his “camouflage” principles applied to golf architecture. I say it would be interesting as can be for at least an attempt at architectural concept that did not in any way lead the eye, at least not always to what may be important. It seems to me that’s the way of Nature in many cases.

If one is on an unknown journey across raw nature, is what he’s looking at that he thinks to be important in his journey really important? Is it really the way or the best way?  It may not be, in my experience---sometimes the opposite in fact. That’s what I’d like to see at least an attempt at in the future of architecture. But I may be the only one!  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2004, 06:33:55 AM »
TE
Does Fallingwater create an "aesthetic clash" or "visual dissonance" sited in a beautiful valley hanging over a rushing stream? Why does IM Pei's ultramodern glass pyramid work so well sitting next to the Louvre? IMO, the reason is an interesting aesthetic constrast.

I don't believe the comparison between rudementary early geometric features and the Macdonald, Raynor and Langford aesthetic is a good one. The primary difference being the use of Nature...those early architects really didn't understand or appreciate Nature. I'm not sure there was an architect better able to see interesting natural features and incorporate them into his design than Raynor (and there were few architects who were given better sites than Raynor). It was his ability to showcase Nature, contrasted with his built features, that sets up the interesting aesthetic relationship IMO.

I think what MacKenzie learned from the Boer's was the importance of studying natural features. They studied Nature and therefore were better able to emulate it when called upon. They were also adept at utilizing natural features. Which goes back to a couple of my earlier points.

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2004, 07:21:43 AM »
"TE
Does Fallingwater create an "aesthetic clash" or "visual dissonance" sited in a beautiful valley hanging over a rushing stream? Why does IM Pei's ultramodern glass pyramid work so well sitting next to the Louvre? IMO, the reason is an interesting aesthetic constrast."

Tom MacW:

That's a really wonderful question---really a good one! I believe that those examples you cited do create a most interesting aesthetic contrast---probably more aptly stated as a truly interesting aesthetic comparison.

However, I'm very mindful of some fairly fundamental distinctions between the PURPOSES in a fundamental sense of building architecture and golf course architecture!

I don't know that building architecture ever really strove to "hide the hand of Man" in some sense to somehow try to meld seamlessly with the lines of Nature---the architecture of Nature, so to speak. Except perhaps, and very ironically the "Arts and Crafts Movement" which you outlined and analyzed so well on this website in the "In My Opinion" section. It occurs to me that the A&C's Movement strove to create architecture that has a certain randomness or lack of balance to it. In that sense that movement strove to mimic a particular aspect of Nature itself.

I don't believe anyone would exactly poo-poo some of the best examples of the balance of classical building architecture or the straight and flat lines of F.L. Wright's Fallingwater or massive presentations of glass of I.M Pei's work in Paris or Washington. But were any of those examples intended to acheive the same purposes of so-called classical golf architecture, one of the primary purposes of which was to "hide Man's hand" as seamlessly as possible as the golf architect strove to meld and merge his architecture into Nature's architeture of the raw site?

Clearly not, in my opinion! Otherwise, most of the very points you made so well regarding the virtual revolution of the "Arts and Crafts Movement" against classical building architecture probably would not have taken place!

As Behr aptly said, the medium of the golf course architect in best expressing his art is the earth and the forces of Nature. One cannot and should not really claim the same goal and purpose for building architecture whether it be Fallingwater, I.M. Pei's works in Paris or Washington or the Parthenon! The purposes of the A&C's movement, however, maybe somewhat different and in that does lie some interesting parallels between that building architecture expression and the most natural of golf course architecture.

Building architecture, even taken as a whole, is probably best seen as a complete expression of the hand of and artistic mind of Man unrestrained by the medium of the earth itself and how the forces of Nature work up her earth (including man-made golf course architecture).

Trying to draw complete parallels between building architecture and golf course architecture, aesthetically or actually is without question the wrong thing to do, in my opinion. There are without question very important and very fundamental differences between the PUPOSES of the two, in my opinion!

Attempting to generalize the two together in this way is completely missing those most important fundamental artistic and aesthetic distinctions and differences!

Again, this is an excellent question. Thank you for it!



T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2004, 07:34:13 AM »
One of the interesting aspects of the A & C movement, it that there was no single style...in fact there were many diverse styles. The reason for this was because the movement promoted individual expression, and designs that drew inspiration from local traditions that had evolved and developed naturally.

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2004, 07:45:25 AM »
"It was his ability to showcase Nature, contrasted with his built features, that sets up the interesting aesthetic relationship IMO."

Tom MacW:

I think that's a very good way to put it! Raynor (MacDonald0 probably did showcase Nature to an extent and in an interesting way. They perhaps did it in the very way you just very well expressed---eg by CONTRASTING what they actually built with Nature (and her lines).

But CONTRASTING what an architect builds is not, in my opinion, the optimum way and manner or even the purpose of doing what some of the best of the "naturalist" architects did (such as Mackenzie).

His purpose, and with his fascinating application of some of his observations on Boer military camouflage was to merge and meld his man-made architectural 'lines" with the lines of Nature so imperceptibly as to be almost undetectable---hence the term camouflage!

This, in fact, is almost the exact opposite of CONTRASTNG! And the reasons for it, are, in my opinion, quite revolutionary and perhaps the fundamental differences between the two types and styles.

I've never said Macdonald/Raynor's style was the same thing as the obviously rather obnoxious looking early geometric golf architecture. I've only said that it's truly ironic that MacDonald/Raynor's highly engineered style is nowhere near the departure from geometric architecture that the architecture of a Mackenzie is! And that really is ironic to me since it was the obnoxiousness of the type and style of the geometric era that inspired Macdonald to do what he did in the first place.

I don't fault Macdonald and Raynor artistically for this---I simply think their early work was as far as they thought to take the aesthetic at that point. Raynor continued to produce that very same style of obvious looking engineered features well into the age when others were almost imperceptibly melding their man-made features into the natural lines of a site so as a golfer could hardly tell which was which. Why did he continue to do it that way up until 1926. Probably because it was his recognized style, it was popular and it's what his clients wanted him to do.

Surely, even as Behr said---"the veriest tryo" could tell the vast difference in look between the styles of Raynor and Mackenzie!

Again, these are great questions! I love this kind of architectural discussion and I know you do too.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 07:46:28 AM by TEPaul »

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2004, 08:21:58 AM »
One of the interesting aspects of the A & C movement, it that there was no single style... the movement promoted individual expression, and designs that drew inspiration from local traditions that had evolved and developed naturally.

Yes Tom! And this is perhaps the key to the best approach to GCA. A truly flexible "style". One which forms few preconceptions at the outset. Maybe the best architects would show no "style" at all, but rather endeavor to make a course that is completely influenced by the local site. This is not so much "natural" as it is camouflage. But the architect would be best served if he sought to conceal HIMSELF as much as his alterations.

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2004, 08:25:51 AM »
One of the reasons I find the history of golf architecture so interesting is because of the many different styles. As an example the thread on North Jersey, Ian Andrews showed a picture of a green at Stafford that has a bold mound jutting out directly behind it. Hollywood had a similar mound behind its 15th green. There is something very appealing about these features. It reminds of my fondnesss for the mounding you find on Stanley Thompson courses...you usually find them in conjunction with his bunkering...they are very sharp and angular...they don't follow any 10 to 1 formula...but none the less they are aesthetically appealing.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 08:54:26 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2004, 09:45:03 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I'd like to discuss some of the similarities as well as the differences between the aesthetics of building architecture generally as distinct from "Arts and Craft Movement" building architecture and golf course architecture both of the geometric style, the highly engineered style of MacD/Raynor and the far more naturalist style of an architect such as Mackenzie and his application of his ideas on camouflage in golf architecture.

What was the primary motivation of the look and style of "Arts and Crafts" building architecture and what was the primary motivation (or perhaps medium) of the real naturalist golf architects such as Mackenzie?

And what was the primary contrasting factors between both of those above and the balanced, symetrical classical building architecture or even the use of the more modern architectural lines and materials of Wright or Pei, and the engineered lines of architects like Macdonald and Raynor?

T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2004, 10:13:51 AM »
There was no single A & C style or look. The primary motivation was utility, followed by honesty.

Contrast is an aesthetic choice that is not unique to the A & C Movement. Frank Llloyd Wright's Prarie Style homes have an element of contrast. As opposed to Earnest Grimson's Stoneywell Cottage which looks as if it sprung from the ground.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2004, 05:14:52 PM »
An from what I understand, Frank Lloyd Wright's mentor was a follower of the Arts and Crafts philosophies. You can see the connections in Wright's use of local materials in his structures - things that connect them to the land or region they stand in.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 05:15:16 PM by Adam_F_Collins »

paul cowley

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2004, 06:07:04 PM »
tmac....it would be more apt to describe mature Wrightian styles as post A&C.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

DMoriarty

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2004, 06:33:33 PM »
There was no single A & C style or look. The primary motivation was utility, followed by honesty.

Tom I am not sure I entirely agree with this.   One has to view the A & C movement in the broader context of what was going on in society.  In this regard, I would suggest that the primary motivation of the A & C movement may have been a rejection of the mechanization and modernization brought on by the industrial revolution; and a corresponding attempt to return to a simpler time.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2004, 01:01:30 AM »
Jeff Brauer,

The Importance of Beauty

Another erroneous idea which is prevalent is that beauty does not matter on a golf course. One often hears players say they "don't care a tinker's cuss" about their surroundings, what they want is good golf. One of the best known writers on golf has been jeering at architects for attempting to make beautiful bunkers. If he prefers ugly bunkers, ugly greens, and ugly surroundings generally, he is welcome to welcome them, but I don't think for an instant that he believes what he is writing about, for at the same time he talks about the beauties of the natural courses. The chief object of evey golf architect or the greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from Nature herself.

The finest courses in existence are natural ones. Such courses as St. Andrews, and the championship courses in general, are admitted to provide a fine test of golf. It is by virtue of their natural formation that they do so. The beauty of golf courses in the past has suffered from the creations of ugly and unimaginative design.

My reputation in the past has been based on the fact that I have endeavored to conserve the exsiting natural features and, where these were lacking, to create formations in the spirit of nature herself. In other words, while always keeping uppermost the provision of a splendid test of golf, I have striven to acheive beauty--Dr. Alister MacKenzie


Now Jeff, I understand you grew-up in an era of concrete and steel, as well as machines to both manufacturer and construct with those two very elements. I did too! Its easy to understand why you think in un-natural ways. I used to think that a lot of that stuff looked good myself, but I learned that from studying these pictures from back then that they (the Masters) knew something that has been lost over a period of time--nautralness.

Why is Cypress Point the epitome of GREAT golf? Why is Pine Valley? Certainly it was because these courses embraced an idea that was fostered by Nature herself. You can even partially see it today!  BUt its OUR job to further the cause of preserving them, and in some cases emulating them in the courses of OUR future--I think Coore & Crenshaw do this as well as many others I celebrate on a hourly basis! ;D  Don't get me wrong, infleuecing the strong strategic principles that many of you do in fact do--thus not boring us the consumer are indeed a great thing--its just they have to get to the next step--the natural side of things and how those natives influence strategy and even the scientific.


T_MacWood

Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2004, 06:42:24 AM »
David
TE's question was "What was the primary motivation of the look and style of "Arts and Crafts" building architecture."

When I think of ‘building’ architecture and the A & C Movement, I immediately think of AWN Pugin and Gothic…most studies of the A & C Movement trace the movement’s origin back to him. He said that there were two great rules for design, '1st, that there should be no features about a building, which are not necessary for convenience, construction or propriety; 2nd, that all ornament should consist of the essential construction of the building.'

After Pugin, I think of Ruskin and his Seven Lamps of Architecture. He said “It is one of the chief virtues of the Gothic builders, that they never suffered ideas of outside symmetries and consistencies to interfere with the real use and value of what they did . . . If they wanted a window, they opened one; a room, they added one; a buttress, they built one; utterly regardless of any established conventionalities of external appearance, knowing . . . that such daring interruptions of the formal plan would rather give additional interest to its symmetry than injure it.”

Both men rejected Classic architecture for Brtiain and most of Europe because it was only true to Greece…Pugin called it  'a bastard Greek, nondescript modern style has ravaged many of the most interesting cities of Europe.' Ruskin said, 'All classicality . . . is utterly vain and absurd, if we are to do anything great, good, awful, religious, it must be got out of our own little island, and out of these very times, railroads and all.'

You are correct there was a rejection of the mass produced pruducts and a desire to return to a time when craftsmanship was important. I think that goes back to the concept of utility and honesty as it relates to architecture. There was no one style because they were drawn to the style that developed and evolved naturally in each unique location...English A&C is quite different from Scotish A&C, Dutch A&C, New England A&C, Chicago A&C, LA A&C or SF A&C. The theory being there was a logical reason why architecture in these places developed the way it did.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 06:52:44 AM by Tom MacWood »

Craig Sweet

  • Rating: 0
Re:What's with the "Natural"?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2004, 09:11:22 AM »
I always felt the Craftsman movement was a response to the whole Beux Arts, Victorian styles of excess. The pillars, the heavy brown stone,the filagree crap demanded a simpler, cleaner,"everyman" response.

Now, as far as golf courses go, we still have these clashes of styles. There is still the over excessive use of "crap" just because the architech can, and will, stick everything under the sun into his design. These elements generally have absolutely nothing to do with whats natural. Are they sometimes "fun"? I suppose, but I'm not sure why they belong in the "natural". Are they beautiful? Yes, sometimes, but again,it is very hard to figure out where they fit in the "natural".

Ya know, I'm just a greenskeeper, but I have my opinions, and I can tell you, all these "tricks" that designers use, often get in the way of better management practices.