Discussing the Redan

[ian]

I had the wonderful experience this fall of playing a series of redans back to back. Over the years I have played a lot of different ones and have found all the experiences to be exhilarating. I have designed a couple of redans and have two on the drawing boards for current projects. Obviously I love the type of hole.

I have wondered which remain the best and why? And are there any that have lessons about what to avoid?

Is the original at North Berwick still the best and should all versions come from this one instead of from others? What is it that makes this one work so well?

 

I have seen many written references to the Redan at the National as the best Redan. I must say it is definately the best I have seen. Why does this one feel the best to so many?



Is it the actual contour of the green that makes this one work so well? What other factors seperate this from others including the origional?



This may possibly the least liked of all the “famous” redans. Is it green speed alone, or were these contours never the ideal in the first place? Is it the angle of approach, or can it be the extremely thin margin for error, with little opportunity to play safe?

Is there others that don't play as well as they should?



I loved the Creek’s Redan and found it to be one of my personal favourites (but that might be due to my left handed natural draw ). What did Raynor add to the redan with many of his other versions, and what worked particularly well?

Why is this called a reverse redan as opposed to just a redan?



I enjoyed some modern ones like Tom Doak’s 17th at Pacific Dunes. Thomas’s 4th at Riviera remains one of the best holes I have seen but remains "unplayable" as a redan with the current variety of grass. Banks, Raynor, Flynn, Tilly all have done versions. Which ones are the best?

Please name some favourites, but most importantly, tell me why they work so well.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

Sorry to divert from your questions for a sec, but where are the Redan holes you've designed with Carrick?

I've long thought that Colt's 4th at Toronto Golf was the lone, TRUE Redan hole in Canada with its green set on a diagonal ridge, severely titled right-to-left and front-to-back.

Curious,

[wsmorrison]

I wouldn't look for copies of the Redan by Flynn but he certainly had concept variations.  I gotta dig through some stacks to get to other photos, but for now here are 2 Flynn Redan-like holes.  The 3rd at Huntingdon Valley used to fall off considerably more on the left but that edge was raised ans scalloped by Joe Kirkwood (I believe).

The 7th at Philadelphia Country Club



The 3rd at Huntingdon Valley Country Club

[Jeff_Mingay]

redanman,

No, you're right... Colt's 4th at Toronto has no bunkers. It's a Redan-like hole similar to Doak's 4th at High Pointe actually.

Both greens sit atop high ridges, and there's not a lot of fairway run-up space at either hole. Thus, it seems more difficult to utilize the right-to-left kick and slope at Toronto's and High Pointe's Redan holes than perhaps at others.  

[ian]

Jeff,

The two I refer to are at Muskoka Bay and at Frog's Breath.

The ones I have built are at:

Ballantrae (17th hole)
The problem here was when the tees were shortened due to a change in housing. The change from 210 yards to 170 yards was enough to have people fly at the pin and get away with it. You can bounce it in, but few choose to.

St. Catharines 4th (renovation) A reverse redan.
Funny at 180 yards this one works, but the bunker in back is not well below grade. Bouncing the ball in is the best play.

I always like to take greens with the grade, so there may be another, I just can not remember.

We (I) have one graded for Maine too, but who knows whether financing will come together on that project.


Bill,

I concider Toronto Golf a version of the redan (without bunkers - using steep valleys instead), but the margin for error is tiny like Shinnecock. I like the hole, but not near as much as the others.

Wayne,

Thanks for the photos, the 3rd at Huntingdon valley is a standout, and one of my favourites. Are they easier to create longer because of the club selection?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Well, that explains it, Ian...

I haven't seen any of the four courses you mention that feature "Andrew Redans"! One day...

I agree with you re: Toronto's Redan. It's not one of the best, but still a very interesting hole.

[TEPaul]

Of the ones I've seen I think NGLA's is the best but closely followed by Piping Rock's. Basically I think the best ones have the best and most interesting bounce in options and that's why those two are the best to me. Flyyn did built a ton of redan variation par 3s but not one I've ever seen had much of a functional bounce in option. Perhaps one of the most interesting of all is Tillinghast's at Somerset Hills which is unusual as about the first third of the green is the bounce in area and then the green turns left and swings down. One of the truly unique things about #2 SH's by Tillinghast is the first third of the green is straight at you and I can swear that when he built that hole all that area to the right of the green on both sides of that bunker on the right and to the right of the high right bank was FAIRWAY!! They ought to restore that and shave the grass on the bank down so people might actually think to putt up over it and down the green (chances would be about 90% the ball would hang up on the bank or go right over the left and back of the green!  

I don't know if the first third or so of SH's redan green is pinnable (perhaps too sloped--I tried to putt it a few times and I wasn't too sure) but if it was that would be a really awesome pin position very unlike any other American redan version I'm aware of.

[TEPaul]

Flynn's Shinnecock redan is pretty different and never was all that unliked until what the USGA did on it this year. The club really should restore the Flynn tee and take out of play the old tee they now use. Just 8-10 steps left to the original Flynn tee would make a world of difference to a well struck shot on that green when it's firm and fast! The really interesting and intense feature of Shinnecock's redan is the beautifully postioned and angled right side that's an awesome diagonal that's hard to impossible to see from the tee. In many ways probably the correct way to play Shinneock's redan is the way Crump recommended the best way to play his awesome 3rd hole (a slight version of a redan) and that was to play the shot with a real cut to it---something that never works very well in practice on most redans.

[Neil Regan]

....
Somehow for me everyone raving about #2 at SHCC (AWT) escapes me.  The green is wonderfully severe almost too much so, but the shaping looks so unnatural to me athat it jsut doesn't fit the course and the land and works less well for me.  The shaping looks a little like silly putty rolled-up and moulded.

Is this the same green ?
(from American Golfer, June 1918, courtesy AAFLA)

[Brian_Gracely]

I only played two holes this year that had Redan-like characteristics, but I've never played a Raynor or CBM Redan.  

12th Hole at Mountain Air (Burnsville, NC) - 220yds - maybe a little too long to truly be able to control the required draw.  Also, OB left and right on this hole, so maybe somewhat too severe.  


Do people think this hole really has Redan-like characteristics if the green does not slope away to the left?  And it doesn't really have a kickplate that will bounce the ball onto the green from the right.

[ian]

"Of the ones I've seen I think NGLA's is the best but closely followed by Piping Rock's. Basically I think the best ones have the best and most interesting bounce in options and that's why those two are the best to me."

Tom, I have always felt the same way, if you have the opions, you have the most fun playing the hole. I will get to Piping Rock next fall, if all goes well.


Bill and Tom,

I must get out to see and play Sommerset Hills, this seems to have the most varied opinion.

On that note, the Redan is one hole type that you have to play to fully appreciate and understand. Many other holes can be understood and appreciated on foot without clubs.
Is this another reason why they are so well liked, you need to play a number of shots to them to fully understand what you can try and where you need to be?

[Paul_Turner]

Ian and Jeff

I didn't see the 4th at Toronto as a "redan".  The ridge was about right, but less and angled, and the green was more directly away rather than sloping right to left...a cut shot was, I think more prefential to a hook.  The hollow beyond the green was very tricky indeed.

Nontheless, it's a first class hole and the group of 3s stand comparison with Colt's best work in GB&I...which is saying something!

Actually I can't think of a single close "redan" copy by either Colt or Alison or Mackenzie for that matter.  Colt was in writing criticising "copy' holes.

Colt has a few holes like at Toronto that you could class as loose interpretations, like the 3rd at St George's Hill or the 11th at Broadstone.  

I think he built a few holes that you could class as Edens.  Perhaps the best is the 8th at Sunningdale Old.  Mack too I think might have used the Eden template sometimes.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I know that some here will be critical of the lines in Brian Silva's work here on Mountain Lake's Redan, but I have to say that Mountain Lake's 11th certainly deserves mention for how it plays. Yes, Florida does have some hills and rolling terrain, and Raynor placed this well.




I do agree that Somersett's left tilt seemed too severe and some well played shots by my partners (I had two pulls left) had no chance.

NGLA's is the #1 IMHO. There are a variety of ways to get it on that green, wind, and it is a beautiful hole and background.

[TEPaul]

Neil:

That's the same green but it's clearer in Tillinghast's book and what appears to be extended fairway area right of the green appears more clearly.

[TEPaul]

MikeS;

I tried to hit a real low punch shot to that Mountain Lake green and it landed short and banked and worked pretty well. Some down there say there's not enough to do on that hole other than to land it on the right side and just watch it filter left. I like it though, it's a big unique looking thing that sits well in that downhill setting.

[TEPaul]

"#11 at Phila CC falls into the category of "redan-like", but neither of the two at PCC are true ground game redans."

redanman:

#11 Philly may look like it but it plays nothing at all like a redan. It's a pretty interesting hole and it's always been hard to figure out what type of shot to hit in there, particularly when the green is firm. The hole has always been a bit of an enigma but it's so much better now since they took all those trees out. In the past if you tried to hit a draw to that green which always felt like the right shot to me your chances of hitting a tree about 60 yards from the green was pretty good.

The other hole at Philly that really does play like an uphill reverse redan because running the ball in is such a good play is #15. The interesting thing about that hole is few seem to try that although they definitely should since the hole plays so long. I think one of the primary reasons players don't use that run-in shot is because if they try it they can't actually see the ball run onto the green. I've seen so many players over the years think they hit the tee shot short and way left only to be completely surprised when they get up there to find their ball on the front of the green. One can't really understand how that hole works from the tee. The best thing to do is stand up by the green and watch some groups play the hole. There's a real left to right kicker up there but, again, you can't see it happen from the tee. It's a very interesting and unique hole.

[TEPaul]

I've only seen and played North Berwick's redan one time and to me it's so much different looking (from the tee) than any of the other redans built in this country. The blindness created by the bunker bank is the major difference and the way the ball performed up there totally surprised me primarily because I couldn't see what it did. I feel it may be a little controversial to actually built a copy in most every way of North Berwick's redan but I'd like to see someone try it today!

[TEPaul]

redanman:

The 3rd at Moselem sort of looks redanish but it really isn't. I think someone should sort of retrofit the front right coming into that green to play like a redan so as the green would have a real feeder or kicker off the higher topography on the front right and the hole would be so much better and more diverse. But they do need to take trees out to do that. retrofitting the hole that way would really make sense since the entire left side of that green is so dangerous---not with a bunker but that steep topography on that side.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

#15 Philly is just a very hard hole for women, even the US amateur level women from where they played it. It was wet that week but the hole is so long for women they tend to hit woods in there too high anyway to bounce correctly onto that green. The interesting thing about that blind left to right bounce-in shot is the trajectory has to be pretty low to work across the ground. For most players the problem they have on that hole is it's so long (functionally because of the severe uphill) they tend to try to lift their tee shots higher into the air and don't hit it very solid.

I forget the name of your asst pro at Lehigh but he won the Philly Am there and he hit the perfect shot from the tips in there which was a really well struck high 4 iron that carried directly over the left corner of the right bunkers and onto the green. But most good golfers aren't as strong and long as he was. He also hit a perfect 4 iron from the tips into the middle of the 7th hole redan. It was an impressive display.

[TEPaul]

"TEP:
#11 PCC generally requires a greater percentage of carry the closer to the front the pin position is to get close, agree or disagree?"

Redanman:

That all depends on the firmness of the green. First of all the tongue of fairway coming into the green looks like you can use it to bounce the ball in but I've never seen that work even with the correct shot. The ball just tends to stop and that's obviously because the green is really downhill. The Philly Open was pretty representative this year as the green was very firm, they did use a front left pin (over the bunker) but it was virtually impossible to get a ball near that pin. Many players hit the ball right into the middle of the green and too many of them bounced right over the green. I'm afraid all the sunlight that green gets now can make that green surface hard enough where all one can really do it just try to get the ball somewhere on that green. Lots of good players seem to miss it in that right bunker which is a hard up and down as the green runs away so severely from there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

In a longer version at 220 yards, this was also in my favorites list, the 4th @ Hidden Creek:



I am sure it has been discussed here before, but is Merion East #3 officially a Reverse Redan ? My thought is no.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

To be perfectly honest with most Flynn redan-type holes including those at Philly, Lehigh, Lancaster and even Shinnecock's it's always just been very hard even for a good player to figure out what kind of shot he should hit. I've seen more really well executed shots on all those Flynn redans that just don't work out very well. On most of them you almost have to just be lucky.

The irony of most of Flynn's redan type par 3s is they probably will play best for these good golfers who are hitting mid and long irons so much higher today. For the rest of us those holes are extremely hard to play well as none of them have functional bounce or run-in design features or contours and if they do they're so small as to make the margin for error razor thin.

This is odd of course because if there are any par 3 designs that are truly designed to almost require a bounce or run-in shot its the Biarritz and the redan, in my opinion.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

It's not Travis Deibert although I know him. Ever met his amateur brother Clint Deibert? I'm talking about the asst pro that was there a few years ago. As an amateur he belonged to Philly C.C. and he won the Philadelphia Amateur there about five years ago.

[TEPaul]

"As you so well stated, it is about conditions.  If they're not right, strategy is lost."

Even if those Flynn style redans have really firm and fast conditions "through the green" bounce-in or run-in shots just don't work well. Many of them have very steep ramps coming into the green like Shinnecock's #7 that are just very hard to bounce a ball in from. I watched some of the pros try that shot in practice on Monday in the Open and it simply didn't work. The only way to make a run-in shot work on Flynn redan's like Shinnecock's #7, Philly's #7 or even HVGC's #7 is to get the ball really low so it will land maybe 30 yards in front of the upslope to the green and just run up the hill. It's about the same idea as trying to hit a run-in shot to NGLA's #12---landing the ball near or at the upslope just doesn't work. That particular feature at Shinnecock's #7 is one of the reasons we think Flynn completely rebuilt that green. It's just so similar to many of the other Flynn-type redans everywhere else.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ian, you asked;

Is it the angle of approach, or can it be the extremely thin margin for error, with little opportunity to play safe?

Testing both distance and line accuracy I find it interesting Ross' name isn't mention at all in this thread.
DId he build any Redans? Or is the Redan more of a concept than some formula?