After Cornish and Whitten

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul Turner's reply to the post about the exact number of links courses prompts me to float an idea past you.

There is a huge amount of detailed knowledge about golf course architects, their courses, alterations and so on within correspondents on GCA.  Some of you are the authors of authoritative books on the subject.

For many of us Cornish and Whitten's impressive lists in The Golf Course are our only guide to who did what when.  It was a great effort at the time but, as we know, there are a few errors, too.

I'd like to pick your brains about creating some sort of permanent record along the lines of C & W but in far greater detail, in an electronic format that can be amended and expanded as new or more accurate information is gathered.  

I see a few problems:

You authors who have researched in great detail the output of your architect.  That material is yours, your copyright and you would need recompense for the use of your material.

Where could this database be set up?  Who would pay for it, its maintenance and someone to input all the information and keep it up to date?

As a piece of research it ought to be available to scholars, but who else?  

What protection is there against the material being pirated?

I've put this idea past one or two GCA regulars, including Ran, and there seems to be general enthusiasm for the idea.

Is there a University somewhere that might consider taking this on as part of its research activity?  Would the USGA or R&A be interested?  What is its relationship, if any, with GCA?

I have done an exercise along these lines already.  I created an enormous database of details of all the GB and I courses when I compiled the Times Guide.  That material belongs to the publisher, Hamlyn.  It's not wholly accurate, it's on an old-fashioned and rather slow database system, but it's a start.  However I do know how long it took me (with the help of an assistant) to input all that material.  I also know how much badgering I had to do to get information out of many of the clubs.  We have a little over 3,000 courses.  How many in the States? 20,000+?  You are talking about a couple of salaries for several years to get something like this into a useful tool.

Any views?

[RJ_Daley]

It seems to me that some sort of foundation needs to be created by some wealthy benefactor.  Sort of like the Amatuer Athletic Union, where they had brought in the Ralph Miller Library.  With a significant kick start of a grant of say $100K, and a not-for-profit fund raising mechanism to solicit donations (not unlike Ran's recieving the donations to run this site), there ought to be enough to create that electronic data base.  Now, if Cornish and Whitten wanted to donate their vast amount of research on courses and architects as a legacy, and the data base Mark speaks of that is somehow controlled by (Hamlyn?) could be used as a start, that ought to be almost half way there to create the mega data base.  

Perhaps once the data base is up and running, a small maintance-user fee could be charged for queries to it in order to keep it running.

I think the ultimate requirement to do such a thing would be a labor of love and donation philosophy.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark;

Please count me in.  A few years back I did some pretty obsessive research on the architectural history of every course I'd ever played (over 700), as well as every public accessible course in the mid-Atlantic region, extending northward to the eastern half of NY state and as far south as Virginia.  

For instance, were you aware that John Benincasa designed the original 18 holes at Gilbertsville GC in 1972 or that Richard & Loretta Kidder designed two courses in NJ and one in PA?  Or that former Lehigh CC superintendent Paul Weiss designed Allentown Municipal GC, or former south Jersey pro Horace Smith designed 3 courses?  

How about the fact that retired schoolteacher Jack Chiarelli convinced Joe Valentine of Merion fame to design his golf course near Reading called Exeter GC, or that Mr. Chiarelli also convinced George Fazio that he should try his hand at design?

It's fun stuff, and much of it is only meaningful to headcases like us, but I would love to see a clearinghouse for the capture, storage, and dissemination of this information.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mike,

Your knowledge is typical of many on this site and of immense value.  We need to find a way of getting all this stuff pulled together in a useful way.  Maybe the GCA membership could share a corporate D.Phil!

[Adam_Messix]

Mark--

There are many additions/corrections that have been penciled in throughout my Architects of Golf book that I will gladly forward to any database.  From experience I will tell you that it is a time consuming experience.  An updated Architects of Golf database would be fantastic as well.

The information I promised you is on it's way....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adam,

Thanks.  You're right - it is very time consuming.

Don't rush because I'm not trying to corner the market in this thing.  I'd like to be a contributor to it - a part of it in some way - but I to make a living doing anything that comes my way and I couldn't commit to a thing like this without some income and that raises many further issues.

I think the purpose of this thread is to thrash out the possible funding and ownership issues, access, exactly what information should be acquired and stored - photos, course maps, course cards, even boring old details such as contact numbers, visitor policies......  And, then, how do we find out about Africa, large chunks of Asia, South America?  There are a lot of issues.

It could be a VERY big database, but you could sell some of the content to those intent on mail shots etc....  But I am not an entrepreneur.

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

I know Ron Whitten has a up to date version of "Architects of Golf", but has had difficulty in finding a publisher for this third installment. He seems to have corrected many of the oversights to the second edition - and perhaps this could be an avenue for publishing his hard work.

Tyler Kearns

[RJ_Daley]

Just don't forget the memorable course history of Foulepoint and the Mogonky course.

[Donnie Beck]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some clubs don't want their records open to the public?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Donnie,

I am sure there are some that would not wish us to know anything about them, but this is not necessarily open to the public in general.  That's why I think it would be a good idea to get it under the auspices of an academic institution of some kind.  

Tyler,

It would be fantastic if between us we could get Whitten's revised lists into print or at least into some sort of published format.  This is where funding comes in.  I'm afraid British publishers don't seem to be interested in golf course design.  

[Willie_Dow]

Mark

What is the latest edition of the "World Atlas of Golf" ?

Willie

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I agree, this is a valuable effort and can be part of a golf architecture research data base available world-wide.  Granted, researchers' efforts should be protected.  Log-in and password codes would allow different tiers of access.  My guess is there is some software code that can prevent piracy yet offer fee-based access to certain portions of a collection for research purposes.  If something needs to be copied either Xerox or facsimile/ museum quality other arrangements can be made.  This would require staffing of the data-base.  The key to this is identifying and obtaining the infrastructure to do this.  

Obviously, the best way to do this is to have a sugar daddy or sugar mama donate some serious cash to establish the I.M. Rich Golf Architecture Collection.  This is an unlikely though possible approach.

It would seem that a university would be a likely candidate.  Cornell, Penn State, Michigan State, and other universities with established connections to golf are some examples of colleges I would go to first for funding.  Christ, if Joe Paterno retires (I wish he would) and Penn State pays some young, great coach significantly less $$, they could easily afford to fund this project.  Joe, If you won't do it for the good of the football program, do it for a golf research database!

It is sad to say, but the ones that should step up and get this done in a combined effort are the USGA and the R and A.  I know some of the treehouse knows members of the USGA and R and A, perhaps some of us on this website can construct a concept document that spells out our vision of this research database and a proposal for access.  This can be presented to some ultra rich individuals and foundations (I have a group to approach), universities, and other groups.

I'd be happy to participate in something like this.  Tom Paul and I, on a smaller scale, are dealing with these issues.  We hope to provide digital copies of all our research materials to the USGA, Golf Assoc of Phila, PA Golf Association, and other groups.  We've been thinking about this issue for some time now and, speaking for Tom, we'd like to see this happen in a larger sense.   Some seed money might be raised to help get a study done as to how to accomplish this, how much money it will take so that a formal plan might be presented.
 

[T_MacWood]

Mark
I'd be glad to help.

IMO Cornish and Whitten have done a remarkable job of cataloging the info, I suspect their updated info is far superior to what they had, and that was pretty damn good. Any attemp for a similar listing would have to use their work as a backbone...is that Kosher? I'd say the one area they may not have complete handle on is the UK and Europe...perhaps that should be the focus.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Of course I'd help too.

Why a club could be so stuffy as to not want to help with this sort of project, is beyond me.  Stuff 'em if they're like that.  Bit like Morfontaine and The World Atlas, eh Mark!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

This is all very valuable input.  I like the idea that between us we might knock some sort of pilot into shape which we could put before likely hosts or sponsors.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sorry to bring this back to the top page.  There are interesting inputs here and some great ideas, so how are we going to make further progress?  The last thing I want to do is to pinch someone else's research, knowledge, hard work and wisdom.

[wsmorrison]

Feel free to call me (610.664.9663) about this.  I would be happy to discuss how interested parties can get together to draft a concept document and an idea or two where to go with such an idea.  It is such a worthwhile effort, glad you brought it up!