[Kelly Blake Moran]

The Regan picture of WFW #10 w/o the bunkers looks better than the finished hole.  Would it be more interesting strategically w/o the bunkers?

[SPDB]

I believe that the "Pro from 52nd Street" and one of golf's greatest gentlemen said the following about WFW #10:

"It's a 3 iron into some guy's bedroom."

- Dave Marr

If the quote is not David's, and is someone else, please let me know.

James - I think you are confusing attribution of two famous quotations about the 10th. Ben Hogan uttered the one you quote above.

Dave Marr's quote referring to his frequency to be jailed on 10 was something to the effect of

"See that deep bunker on the right? When I was an assistant pro at Winged Foot, that's where they delivered my mail."

SPDB

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

SPDP -

Supreme lack of sleep from golfing trip.

Many thanks for the correction on the quote.  I knew about the Dave's Mail Quote

JWK

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

I'd offer the 3rd hole at GCGC.

A seemingly routine straight away par 4.

The fairway cants from high right to low left, forcing most golfers to draw the approach shot.

However, the green cants from high left to low right, hence most approaches are left and above the pin, leaving the golfer with a treacherous downhill sidehill putt and/or recovery.

The hole also has a long trench bunker paralleling the right side of the fairway, which I believe is the prefered side, since it's elevated above the fairway and provides and angle of attack that causes the green to hold rather then reject approach shots.

The hole also has deep bunkers offset some 30 yards from the front of the green and a deep rear bunker that is fed by approach shots that run from high left to low right on the green, or shots just hit long.

Time after time I've seen fair to good players hit perfect drives in the fairway who are surprised to walk off the green with a bogey or worse.

I think it's a subtle hole that most miss, a hole that sneaks up on the unsuspecting or cavalier golfer.

Certainly one that doesn't catch your eye because other holes seem so much more ..... remarkable.

[redanman]

In any case I believe you're wrong about 16CPC.  What's
the first question anyone asks when you return from
playing the course?  I'd bet 9 times out of 10 it's "how'd
you do on 16?".  Why?  

Because most golfers have no taste in architecture and
know what they know from pictures.

I'd probably ask you:

"How'd you play #9?"

Next thing you'll be telling me is that two 1-handicap golfers from The O told you that Bandon Trails was the best course in the world based on playing 7 holes........

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

The 10th at WF / West leaves little margin for error. You played the hole ONE TIME and clearly you have an opinion but I believe if you played the hole multiple times you would see the merits of what I just said.

The green is as slippery as a frog out of water. People who play too much club to a front pin placement are stuck with a likely three-jack. If the pin is deep in the rear and you decide to bailout short the putt faced is still demanding even though it's uphill.

Heaven help if you steer it too far left or right. Recovery to a Tillie green -- particularly this one -- is as likely as winning the NY State Lottery.

I have played the 16th at CP and no doubt love the hole. But let's get real -- plenty of the hoopla tied to that hole is because of the setting -- the actual green itself is really quite anticlimatic and I would dare go to say pedestrian in its complexity.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

To each his own.  I could play each of these golf holes 1000 times and I'm never going to prefer the one in NY.  Yes, it has a wonderful green, far superior to that at 16CPC.  I've said that already.  But is a par three to be assessed simply based on its green?  Not in my book, not even close.  It's the sum total of shot requirements, green and yes SETTING that make up the equation.  WF#10 wins on one, but loses on the other two by such a large margin that to me this comparison is really quite laughable.  And all three do matter.

Here's the thing also, Matt:  you keep going on about how tough the recovery requirements are on WF10, and tough they are, yes.  But unless you are Christ himself, they're always gonna be a hell of a lot easier than those at CP16, where walking on H2O would be the requirement to play the shot.  

redanman:

Who said anything about ARCHITECTURE?  I could give a rats ass about the subject.  I'm talking about playing the golf holes.  It was, is, always shall be, far more inspiring and fun to play CP16 than WF10.  Architecture?  Hell, what do any of us know?  Leave that to those in the business.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

If someone wants to play 16 at CP in a gutless manner --- they bail out -- wedge on and two putt for bogey. End of story!

Winged Foot West's 10th doesn't provide the easy way out because there isn't any.

Sorry to say partner but you've allowed the "atmosphere" to dominate your thinking. You must have been watching the seals clapping toooooooooo long.

The green at CP is simply light-weight stuff -- far from anything of substance the Doctor designed that I have played IMHO.

No doubt the 16th at CP wins as a beautiful picture and like I said I love the hole. Just realize that the 10th at WF / West never suffers fools -- emphasis on the never. Come back again and you might be surprised by the nature of what the hole truly provides.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Oh, please.  You are high as a kite on this one, my friend.  But I'm not into arguing when views are entrenched, and entrenched we are on this one.

So I won't even bother to respond with any detail.  You are 100% wrong, which is OK, most of the time you are 100% right in your assessments.

Jeez... 10 isn't even the best, nor toughest, par 3 on the course... I'd say 3 is a tougher hole, and 7 is a better hole...

Compare to 16CPC?  Absolutely comically wrong.

But that's ok, to each his own.  Nice house.  Nice boring 6iron for you.  

[THuckaby2]

Tom, it's within 2 hours of Manhattan.  It's better by definition.    There is nothing west of the Appalachians or south of the Mason-Dixon line that's worth a damn.  Cmon man, you know better....

AHA! Right... how foolish of me.
Of course he might say the same thing about me and courses close to the SFBay Area.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Given the nature of the topic -- "great holes not cathing one's eye" -- I was going to mention including ALL of Medinah, but why start something that everyone knows to be true.

[Andy Hughes]

If someone wants to play 16 at CP in a gutless manner --- they bail out -- wedge on and two putt for bogey. End of story!
Winged Foot West's 10th doesn't provide the easy way out because there isn't any.

Options, options, options.....
I take it, Matt, that you are therefore saying 16 at CP is the superior hole architecturally?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

If the hole in question has already been deemed a great hole by the cognoscente, are you stating that the golfer that has played it, but doesn't recognize it as such, is an architectural dolt, a TEPaul wannabee ?

[TEPaul]

"If the hole in question has already been deemed a great hole by the cognoscente, are you stating that the golfer that has played it, but doesn't recognize it as such, is an architectural dolt, a TEPaul wannabee?"

Patrick Mucci, you're nothing but a BIG BOOBY!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're quite correct, I do enjoy big boobies.

[TEPaul]

CHECK!

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